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**Ian Hancock** · 04-18-2005, 07:48 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Nigel,

What a great question.........

I don't have a rule book handy but he goes my guess.........

Firstly, you played two ball from the tee, this should give a great indication of where you "thought" the balls had gone...........Therefore it was a fair assumption that the balls had entered the hazard.

The provisional ball is exactly what it says so that ball is never in play until you decare it.

You then agree that it is a fair assumption that the ball went into the hazard.......You take your drop and penalty and then "PLAY" your next stroke adding the penalty stroke of course.

Now you walk up and find your origional ball, this is whats know as Tuff S**T in the UK, you should have walked up in the five minutes you had to look for your ball before "DECLARING" it in the hazard/lost/OB etc.......

You should play the ball you dropped unfortunatley..............However I could be wrong, but this is what I would suggest to the player and argue it with the big wigs after.

Ian.

**Mizunoman** · 04-19-2005, 05:38 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

If in any sort of doubt at all play BOTH balls, mark your score down for each one then ask for a ruling when you finish and sign the card after you sort it out.

If you find the first ball then you have to play it unless you declare it lost then you HAVE to play the second.

Remember if you think you have lost a ball but arent sure and the ball could be in some pretty nasty stuff, hit a provisional with an iron or any club that you cant reach the original ball with. When you get to the provo (as long as its in play of course) play your approach shot and if its a goodie (within makeable putt range) you have a decision to make. You can go and look for the first drive and if you find it try and do better than a 5 or you can declare it lost and trust your putting to salvage a 5 and move on. If, on the other hand you make a bad fist of the provo go and try your darndest to find the first one and play as normal.

Remember: YOU CAN PLAY A PROVISIONAL UNTIL YOU FIND YOUR FIRST BALL AS LONG AS THE FIRST BALL IS CLOSER TO THE GREEN WHEN YOU PLAY SUBSEQUENT SHOTS WITH THE PROVO.

Now I know this will provoke cries of 'FOUL!' but its only using the rules to your advantage, be realistic, we play this game to win otherwise we wouldnt enter competitions in the first place. Doing this doesnt make you a bandit or a cheat, the rules are there to help as well as penalise.

D.

**GreeBoman** · 05-30-2005, 03:01 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Originally posted by Mizunoman

If in any sort of doubt at all play BOTH balls, mark your score down for each one then ask for a ruling when you finish and sign the card after you sort it out.

If you find the first ball then you have to play it unless you declare it lost then you HAVE to play the second.

Remember if you think you have lost a ball but arent sure and the ball could be in some pretty nasty stuff, hit a provisional with an iron or any club that you cant reach the original ball with. When you get to the provo (as long as its in play of course) play your approach shot and if its a goodie (within makeable putt range) you have a decision to make. You can go and look for the first drive and if you find it try and do better than a 5 or you can declare it lost and trust your putting to salvage a 5 and move on. If, on the other hand you make a bad fist of the provo go and try your darndest to find the first one and play as normal.

Remember: YOU CAN PLAY A PROVISIONAL UNTIL YOU FIND YOUR FIRST BALL AS LONG AS THE FIRST BALL IS CLOSER TO THE GREEN WHEN YOU PLAY SUBSEQUENT SHOTS WITH THE PROVO.

Now I know this will provoke cries of 'FOUL!' but its only using the rules to your advantage, be realistic, we play this game to win otherwise we wouldnt enter competitions in the first place. Doing this doesnt make you a bandit or a cheat, the rules are there to help as well as penalise.

D.

You cannot declare a ball lost if you have played a provisional, anyone can look for it and if they find it you have to play it. You can declare it lost on the Tee before you play a provo. In fact if you do not declare a provo it doesnt matter if you find the first one or not, its your tough.
Also you cannot have two balls in play, so your idea of playing your second shot with you provo is invalid, once you hit your provo past or around the area where your first one went, you have given up on it. You can play the provo up to the area of the first ball and then look for it, but not your way.
You must audibly declare the ball as a provisional this is so prevent you from being able to benefit from having two balls in play.

**gord962** · 05-30-2005, 05:49 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

As long as you haven't declared the original ball lost or in the hazzard, you would eb hitting two. If you declard the ball lost or in the hazzard, you would then be playing the provisional ball. See USGA rule 27-2 B:

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).....

**LowPost42** · 05-31-2005, 02:04 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Ball 1 thought to be Lat OB.
Provisional (Ball 2) put into Lat Hazard.
Ball 3 dropped (with 1 stroke penalty) and played. BALLS 1 and 2 are NO LONGER IN PLAY, as you have assumed that Ball 1 is LOST in the hazard.

Ball 3 is the ball in play.

@GreeBoman: You can hit a provisional if you think your ball may be lost. Then you can use Mizuno's "trick". But there's a penalty for playing the wrong ball if you hit your provisional and your original is found further back.

**GreeBoman** · 05-31-2005, 08:33 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Originally posted by LowPost42

@GreeBoman: You can hit a provisional if you think your ball may be lost. Then you can use Mizuno's "trick". But there's a penalty for playing the wrong ball if you hit your provisional and your original is found further back.

But you cant! Once he plays his apprioach with the provisional it is the ball in play. For example you CANNOT hit two drives, the second being a provisional, then hit your approach with the provisional, decide if you like the shot, if not go and look for the original ball. My point is once you play your approach with the provisional it becomes the ball in play as you played it from on or around the location of the first ball.
You dont get to have two options in golf, you cant have two balls in play.
Otherwise you could do this with every single shot on the course!

**GreeBoman** · 05-31-2005, 08:41 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Originally posted by gord962

As long as you haven't declared the original ball lost or in the hazzard, you would eb hitting two. If you declard the ball lost or in the hazzard, you would then be playing the provisional ball. See USGA rule 27-2 B:

You can only "declare" it lost on the tee, you have two choices, play a provisional or delare it lost and play another ball.
You cant hit a great provisional and just declare your original lost then, anyone can look for the original and find it, if they do you have to play it.
Note that you dont have to look for it yourself and as long as it is your turn you can hit your provisional, making it the ball in play.
There is a difference between the ball being lost in a Water Hazzard and out of bounds for example, and you need reasonable proof that it is in fact in the Water Hazzard.

**gord962** · 05-31-2005, 02:29 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

But you cant! Once he plays his apprioach with the provisional it is the ball in play. For example you CANNOT hit two drives, the second being a provisional, then hit your approach with the provisional, decide if you like the shot, if not go and look for the original ball. My point is once you play your approach with the provisional it becomes the ball in play as you played it from on or around the location of the first ball.
You dont get to have two options in golf, you cant have two balls in play.
Otherwise you could do this with every single shot on the course!

NO - the provisional ball is only the ball in play if you have played the provisional ball nearer to the hole than the original or if the original is lost.

For example: I hit a drive into the trees that appears to be at the 150 yard marker. I hit a provisional, but it doesn't go as far (at the 200 yard marker) and stays in the fairway. I can then play my provisional - which would still be my provisional because it was played behind my orignial ball. NOW, I can look for my first ball and if I find it, the first abll is the ball in play. I'm now hitting two from witht the first ball and the provisional ball is no longer in play.

**GreeBoman** · 05-31-2005, 02:35 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Originally posted by gord962

NO - the ball is only in play if you have played the provisional ball nearer to the hole than the original.

Which is exactly what I said!

Originally posted by GreeBoman

once you play your approach with the provisional it becomes the ball in play as you played it from on or around the location of the first ball.

Both you and Mizunoman said that you could play your second, decide if you like the shot and then either look for your original shot or not.

Originally posted by gord962

Then you can use Mizuno's "trick".

This is only possible if, for example, you duff your way along with your provo, which is NOT Mizunomans "Trick".

**gord962** · 05-31-2005, 03:22 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

The last quote was not my quote - that was Ben's- LowPost 42.

As for what Darryl (Mizunoman) said, this should only be used if you are unsure of a ruling, play both balls, keeping both scores and determine the ruling when you get in, then recording the correct score for that hole after the ruling is known.

**GreeBoman** · 05-31-2005, 03:26 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Originally posted by gord962

The last quote was not my quote - that was Ben's- LowPost 42.

Opps my bad.

Originally posted by gord962

play both balls, keeping both scores and determine the ruling when you get in, then recording the correct score for that hole after the ruling is known.

Wont that result in a 2-stroke penalty for playing the wrong ball (in a comp)?
but I suppose at least you wont be disqualified...

**LowPost42** · 05-31-2005, 08:30 PM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Yes- and IIRC, a stroke for every stroke made at the wrong ball.

**donaau** · 06-01-2005, 05:37 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Nigel said "my provisional ball goes to the same place". IMHO this equates to "a place where the original ball is likely to be" in Rule 27-2b. Therefore as the original ball has not been found, the provisional becomes the ball in play. But it is also a lost so when the decision is made to drop another ball you are, in effect, declaring both other balls lost. The balls having been declared lost and another (third) ball played it is too late to find the original - tough

The answers to the questions are:
a. Continue playing the dropped ball.
b. The dropped ball is the ball in play.
c. You were 3 off the tee plus a penalty for the water hazard so when you play the dropped ball it is your 5th shot.

You could try Mizunomans suggestion of playing both balls to complete the hole then ask for a ruling by the match committee but I wouldn't like your chances.

**CantPuttICant** · 06-01-2005, 10:52 AM

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

I was playing my first hole when I drove it into the trees. I couldn't find it and I went back to the tee to play another ball. I then duffed it, and hit it again. When I walked to my playing partner he had found my ball. Can I play this original ball? Was it declared lost when I went back to the tee? And out of curiosity, when your partner says 'you go back to the tee, I'll keeping looking...', is this pointless?

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