Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

No, you can hit the provisional up to the point where you can reasonably expect the orignal ball to be, once you play past that, the provo is the ball in play.
The issue in your case is, is the second ball a provisional ball or not. Unless you declare it to be a provisional ball its not and its the ball in play (unless you holed out with the original ball)
But you would only have 5 minutes minus what you already spent looking to find the first ball, but again, who goes back to the Tee to play a provisional...

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

I didn't use up my 5 minute time limit. My partner said he would keep looking for the ball while I went back to the tee to play another. Can I declare this as a provisional ball? This is a sharp dogleg hole to the right. My second shot with my second ball was in the gap. Before I played my third shot with this ball my partner found my original ball. Because I had pushed it slightly right, it was closer to the hole. Can I play it?

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

As long as you actually said that you were playing a "Provisional" and not just "playing another"
It doesnt matter how far you hit either ball, its if you play another stroke from on or about where the original ball was.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

It's my understanding that you cannot go back to the tee to play a provisional - once you've left the teeing ground you've had your chance. When you go back to the teeing ground, and play a 'provisional' you are in fact declaring your second ball to be the ball in play. (Happened to Sam Torrance in the Scottish Open - left the teeing ground, turned back played a 'provisional' was informed after he'd played it that it had to be the ball in play because he had left the teeing area - perfect golfing irony was that he found his first ball......and later missed the cut by a single stroke)

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Hmm I dunno about this, does it mention "teeing area" in the rules?

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Excerpted from 27-2a (Provisional ball):

"...he must play the provisional before he or his partner goes forward in search of the original ball..."

Failure to do so is a stroke and distance penalty, the first ball is lost.

So while 'teeing area' isn't mentioned, it would be construed that since he went forward, then went back, he effectively conveyed that he considered his first ball lost.

Duncan, you are correct.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Well that clears that up!
bottom line, if in any doubt at all, declare & play a provo.
Much easier than slinking back to the tee...

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Any time I'm even close to being OB, I play a provisional. I find it helps speed up play, and reduces the chances of having to take the walk of shame.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Ok Ok Ok Ok.....obviously a contentious issue this.....

What you are allowed to do is declare a provisional ball. As long as you do not hit the provo further than the original ball which is , I grant you, sometimes a hard call to make. As long as you do not play the provo from a point closer the hole than the original you can still play the original if you find it. Now, as far as I know you can declare a ball lost at anytime. So if you head towards the general spot and are knee deep in cabbage then its probably prudent to declare the ball lost and continue with the provisional.

I know this all sounds very very dodgy with regards to the spirit of the rules. Again, I am a realist, the rules are quick enough to penalise you so there's really no reason why you shouldnt use them to your advantage. It's a simple question of course management, no different to a Pro spending 10 minutes making absolutely clear in his or her mind their rights for lifting and dropping from a sprinkler head or a rabbit s****ing and then taking the most advantageous route.

D.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Hmm I dont think so, in fact I am pretty sure you cannot, under the R&A rules anyhow.
If your opponent or in fact anyone finds your ball (and they can look for it even if you dont) before you play the provo into play, then tough luck on you.
The only way a ball "becomes lost" is when another ball is brougt into play.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Close Mizuno.

You can declare a ball unplayable at any time (unless you're in a water hazard).

Then you take a 1 stroke penalty and:

a) Play a ball as nearly as possibel at the spot from which the original ball was played.

OR

b) Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and teh spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball my be dropped.

OR

c) Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

I'm confused. What has the unplayable ball got to do with a provisional ball? Provisional balls are only related to balls that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. (Definitions and Rule 27-2).

GreeBowman's answer is spot on.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Wrong - if your provisional is longer, it's irrelevant. But you're very close.

Bingo!

That's true. But as Gree pointed out, your playing partner can continue the search - even if you've moved forward to play the provisional. But if your PP is still searching, don't play the provo if it's ahead of where you think your other ball is lost - because if it's found, you'll incur a two stroke penalty for playing the wrong ball.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

Nope, not true.
Once you attempt to hit the provo from a spot further than where you can reasonably expect the original ball to be, the provo becomes the ball in play.
The only exception to this is if you find the original abll in the cup, then you take that score as once the ball is in the cup the hole is over.

If what you said was true then your PP could make you wait 5 mins for every lost ball before you could take a stroke, you can decide when to stop looking for yorur ball and play the provo.

Re: Interesting Lost ball in Lateral Hazard Scenario

You can't declare a ball lost, you can assume it lost in a hazard (under Rule 27-1 exception 1) and proceed according to Rule 26-1, or you can declare it unplayable if you know where it is, and proceed according to Rule 28.

A resume:

1) You hit a ball into oblivion (first shot) and suspect it may be hard to find, so you wish to avoid the 'walk of shame'.

2) You declare and hit a provisional ball (provisional third shot) - also into oblivion. At this point, the original ball is still the ball in play.

3) When searching for the original ball, you can't find it and assume it is in the hazard. You can't declare a ball unplayable in a water hazard, so that is not an option (not that it matters much, since I don't think you can declare a ball unplayable unless it is actually found, considering that drop-rules concerning unplayable balls (Rule 28) relate to the specific location of the unplayable ball). At this point, the original ball is still in play.

4) Speculating now - while searching for the original ball, you find your provisional ball in a spot that can reasonably be assumed to be shorter than the original ball (ie. found short of the area in which you and others are searching for the original ball). At this point, the original ball is still in play.

5) You play the provisional ball forward (provisional fourth shot) and fire it straight at the pin, leaving only a few feet to putt. At this point, the original ball is still in play.

6) Under the assumption that your original ball is lost in the water hazard, you drop a ball under Rule 26-1 (second shot). At this point the substituted ball is in play (Rule 15-2), and the provisional is no longer an option.

7) You fire the substituted ball towards the green (third shot), but it sucks bad or scrams right into yet another water hazard, and you feel that the provisional ball is a better bet for a 5, than the substituted ball will be.

TOO BAD! You'll have to take another drop (fourth shot) and fire the 5th at the pin.

Now ... walking back to your bag, you find the original ball.

TOO BAD! The original ball has been substituted and is no longer in play.


But let's backtrack for a second, and assume that (having reasonably assumed that your ball is lost in the hazard), you decide to go get another ball in your bag, and while walking back to the bag, you find the original ball, but it is short of the point from which you took your provisional fourth shot to within a few feet of the pin.

You have now played the provisional ball from a point that was closer to the hole than the original ball. Does that make it the ball in play?

NO!

You didn't play the provisional ball from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball was likely to be (as indicated by the area being searched by yourself and others). So at this point, the original ball is still the ball in play. It doesn't matter either that you have given up your search, that you assume the original ball lost, or that you have gone to get another ball. Until the ball is correctly substituted the original ball is still in play.

Now ... here's the big decision to make. Do you play the second shot off the original ball, or do you declare it unplayable under Rule 28, and play the provisional ball for a short putt for 5?

THAT'S UP TO YOU!

You CAN play the original ball, but you don't HAVE to. If you DO choose to play the second shot off the original ball, the provisional ball is abandoned under Rule 27-2c.

And since we all know the irony of golf, chances are you'll play your second shot off the original ball, and sh**k it into the lateral hazard, leaving you with a drop for 3 and another approach for the 4 that your provisional ball is already close to the pin in.

You gotta love this game