Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

So you are saying if you could make a very comfortable living off of the other tour you wouldn't do it if it was permissible?

What if you were the PGA pro who lost out on a tournament start (and a chance to earn your living let's not forget) by one place because someone from the LPGA tour got in instead?

Shouldn't you have the right to try to take the place they left vacant on their tour?

All the glory in the world won't put food on the table.

IMO by allowing LPGA players to play on the PGA tour you are denying another PGA player their right to compete and earn their wage.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

When Michelle has 11 men's majors by the age of 30 and has completed the career grand slam twice, give me a call. Until then * yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn *

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

Nope.

I'd feel like a complete loser if she qualified and I didn't. If her exemption cost me a place, I'd be PISSED, and you can bet your a$$ the Tour, the media, the other players, sponsors, etc. would all hear about it from me.

Like I said, I don't think any male with any self-respect whatsoever would even consider it.

Agreed there. And like I said, I agreed with what Vijay said at the time: if she's paired with me, I ain't playin'.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

There are no such rights in golf, and it's not a "wage." The PGA is a *business* that's run like other businesses and this is why exemptions can be and are granted. Like other professional sports, PGA golf is a part of the entertainment industry. The PGA is able to exist because people will pay to see tour events, and they'll watch them, and the commercials, on television. The people who run the PGA are free to exercise their discretion to make tour events more entertaining to the public, to generate higher advertising revenues. The entertainment value of Michelle Wie competing against the men is great. That's because a women isn't expected to be able to compete very well against men. Since a male pro golfer *is* expected to be able to compete very convincingly against women, there's little entertainment value in having him do so. His rights aren't violated if the LPGA tells him to take a hike because there's little money to be made having him play against a field of women.

If Michelle Wie plays in PGA events and does well, that will generate a lot of money for the PGA, and the other PGA players will benefit from that as well. If she plays in PGA events and gets slaughtered time after time, interest will wane, and that will be the end of that.

We may not like it, but it's show biz. If it weren't, there would be no professional golf, and no one would be making a living at it, just as it was for most of the history of the game.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

It's not a wage?

What is it then?

My earnings from my job are called my wage therefore a pga pros earnings are their wages as golf is their job.
The better they play the bigger the wage.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

Prize money.

That doesn't follow. Not all earnings are wages. Salaries are different from wages. Royalties are different from wages. Pro golfers are competing for prize money, not working for wages.

But that's just a technicality. You didn't address the main points that I made.

Forget about Michelle Wie for a minute. Do you ever watch the program "The Big Break" on the golf channel? These guys are involved in a *contest* to win an exemption to play on the European tour. Whoever wins will be in a position to play in events that he wouldn't otherwise have been able to play in, taking up a spot that some card-carrying tour pro might have had. Does that violate anyone's rights? Of course not.

The PGA has the right to grant exemptions. When they do so, nobody's rights are violated. I have to emphasize this, because you framed the issue in terms of the "right to compete."

We could ask instead if it's "good" for Michelle Wie to compete in PGA events? Good for whom? For Michelle Wie, it may be good if she does well. For the golfer who might have competed if she hadn't, it's not so good. For the others competing in the event, it depends upon how they feel about getting less attention. For pro golf in general, it's probably good, because the public loves a spectacle, and what the public loves makes more money for the competitors.

Just for the sake of argument, imagine Michelle Wie plays in some PGA events and finishes in the top ten. As a result, television viewers of PGA events go up by an amazing 50%. Women who never watched golf start watching. New sponsors crowd in, and we start to see commercials for feminine products as well as Cialis! The players are able to negotiate more money in endorsements, and prize money goes up. I imagine the average PGA player would be very pleased with this turn of events.

Meanwhile, there is no identifiable individual golfer who is shut out of PGA events. Whoever might have played in one event, but didn't get to because of Michelle Wie, may well play in the next event.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

That's not much consolation for the struggling tour pro who may need the place to help secure his card ,and as such his job ,for the next season.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

True, and at least now we're talking about consolation, which is relevant, rather than his "right" to compete in that event. As I said above, that same struggling tour pro could be bumped by a winner of "The Big Break," or by any other golfer who gets an exemption, for any reason, to take up a spot in a tour event. Exemptions, by definition, bump somebody. I can sympathize with that struggling tour pro, but you know what? His is a risky job and he knows it. He knows that exemptions happen, and when they do, someone gets bumped. He goes into the profession knowing that.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

But he has a right to compete in the event which is taken away by someone from the LPGA tour taking a place ,which takes me back to my original question.

Should he be allowed to try to qualify for the place she gave up on her tour and ,if not,is it discriminatory?

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

I think if you there was a spot that was 'filled' by a sponsors' exemption, and if one can determine which male was not playing the tournament because of this exemption, then I think he should be eligible to attempt to qualify for whichever LPGA tournament is being played - from the Black tees.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

To repeat, competing is a privilege, not a right. A right is a protected interest. The very fact that the PGA reserves, by contract, the right to grant exemptions, means that no player's interest in competing is protected.

The LPGA reserves the same rights as the PGA to grant exemptions, or not to grant them. Since exemptions are not a right either, it follows that if he doesn't get one his rights aren't violated and he hasn't been treated unfairly.

The main point is this: neither the PGA nor the LPGA owes him an opportunity to compete. That means if he doesn't get the opportunity, it's not unfair. But it would be discriminatory, since it would be because of his gender that he didn't get the opportunity. Gender discrimination is only unfair if it denies someone an opportunity to which he or she would otherwise be entitled. Since competing in golf events is not an entitlement...it's not unfair.

[edited for typos]

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

Well said, ubizmo.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

Not sure if this should be another thread... but it's interesting to speculate whether, when Ms. Wie hits her prime, many male golfers would be interested in competing in a one-on-one match with her. The prize money, if significant, would be an enticement, but the risk of losing would carry a greater than usual sting--for the male.

I'm guessing that only a top-rated male golfer would do it. If he were to lose, it wouldn't be taken as evidence of mediocrity, since his excellence would already be established, and on any given weekend even the best golfer can lose a match. But a lesser-rated male player would be more vulnerable to the suspicion that, should he lose, he lost simply because Michelle Wie is a better golfer.

Consider the dream match of Tiger Woods vs. Michelle Wie. Can you imagine the hype surrounding an event like that? It would be incredible. Suppose Tiger were to lose. Would anyone think any less of him? I doubt it. He's Tiger! And if he were to win, as he almost certainly would, I think most would congratulate him for being gracious enough to accept the challenge in the first place. I guess a few might criticize him for "beating up a girl," but you can't please everybody.

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

Do you mean the same way Annika plays in a PGA skins game every year?

Re: Miss Wie qualifying and playing PGA Events

I was thinking more along the lines of one of those "Wonderful World of Golf" pairings.