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**mr3856a** · 11-08-2005, 08:14 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

Depending on your course, my guess is that your average pro, ie PGA Tour player, would absolutely eat it alive. That guy shot 6 under? I'd bet you $20 half the guys on Tour would shoot in the 50's there 4 times out of 10.

Like the commercial says, these guys are good.

**biggaryT78** · 11-08-2005, 08:36 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

im not sure I agree... all the way ON most courses on a day to day layout they would Easily shoot low-mid 60s I agree with that. But their sand is always PERFECT. They have a caddie, Game plan, Practice on course, pins, etc... on the tournament course. Do those things not midigate the extra strokes they would play on the tournament? or add to what they would do without all that Prep etc..

I have always felt, you put "an okay" caddie on my bag, and i would drop 4 or 5 strokes right there? any takers?

**pinyo8** · 11-09-2005, 12:56 AM

Re: Low handicap not to good

My comment would be that the course is obviously a slightly easier layout if he cant play as well on other courses. However, for anyone to play off +4 is not easy on any course. I mean, to play that consistently that person definitely has some talent. Maybe his handicap may be a +2 or a scratch somewhere else which is awesome to any standards.I think its perhaps when the real pressure is on he couldnt quite do the same thing in tournaments. From what you mentioned, he definitely wasnt scrambling to score 4 under par so he has the ability to go even lower.

Mr_change, could you tell me the layout of that course?

**cct** · 11-09-2005, 09:13 AM

Re: Low handicap not to good

He might not have had the work ethic and determination to make it. Becoming a pro is only half the battle, its working extra hard on your game once your pro and pushing yourself to get as good as the other tour pros. Its a big challenge to go from being the best as an amateur and then pretty much nothing as a pro.

Retief Goosen turned pro off +2
Ian Poulter turned pro off 4

A local pro near me, who one of my playing partners knows well, turned pro off +4 around the same time as Steven O'hara (look for him on the european tour website) also off +4. O'hara is now a european tour regular and is doing well. While the other guy is struggling on the europro tour. These guys were always challenging each other in the amateur ranks. My playing partner feels that its because o'hara is working harder and is more determined.

**Mr_Change** · 11-09-2005, 10:22 AM

Re: Low handicap not to good

The course is a par 73, with a course rating of 73.8. most other courses around have a lower course rating than the parage.

here is the par

1st 515 metres (566 yards) par 5 this is downhill but the fairway goes around a pond
2nd 460 metres (506 yards) par 5 over 100 metres of water to tee over
3rd 160 metres (176 yards) par 3
4th 250 metres (275 yards par 4 this is uphill
5th 340 metres (370 yards) dogleg left about 210 metres
6th 195 metres (214 yards) par 3
7th 370 metre (407 yards) par 4 downhill
8th 300 metre (330 yards) par 4 uphill the first 240 metres then downhill to green
9th 505 metre (555 yards) par 5
10th 385 metre (423 yards) par 4
11th 300 metre (330 yards) par 4 dogleg 240 metres
12th 120 metre (132 yards) par 3
13th 380 metre (418 yards) par 4
14th 260 metre (286 yards) par 4 this is quite steep going up
15th 420 metre (462 yards) par 4 this is downhill
16th 320 metre (352 yards) par 4 still down hill
17th 230 metres (253 yards) par 4 uphill
18th 490 metres (539 yards) par 5

The greens are very well protected the fairways are wide with really tall pine trees between them and they have a few fairway bunkers. I think it was more the pressure of performing infront of crowds.

**mr3856a** · 11-09-2005, 01:55 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

That's around 6500 yards - a pitch and put by Tour standards. I'm sure your friend would whoop my butt any day of the week and twice on Sunday - don't take this to mean I'm saying he's not good. But I would dare say most *quality* touring pros would tear that course limb from limb.

**shootin4par** · 11-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

when you get to a +4, the difference between a successful pro and non successful player is between the ears. In Tigers book "how I play golf" he shows he was a +6 at his home course. Now the book was copyrighted in 2001 so I would imagine that this handicap index was from 2000, which was when he was playing lights out. During the year of 2000 the difference between Tigers scoring average (67.79) and number 50 in scoring average was almost a full three strokes. A scoring average of 70.77, which was number 50 that year, would probably equate to around a +3.5 to 4.5. A +4, who could handle the pressure, should be able to make it on a high level tour and make some cash, be it PGA, Euro, or nationwide tour. My exact numbers could be off a little but maybe someone with more tour knowledge could enlighten us.

**cct** · 11-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

Once an amateur turns pro, their handicap doesn't mean anything anymore.

Retief Goosen turned pro off +2 and Sergio Garcia off +5!! Does that mean Garcia is on average 3 strokes better than Goosen? Goosen is above Garcia in the world golf rankings!!

Once you turn pro there is a level playing field. It all depends on your work from there onward. Obviously a player who turns pro off +4 compared to a player who turns pro off scratch will be better at the start.

**Ian Hancock** · 11-10-2005, 11:41 AM

Re: Low handicap not to good

This is a great thread.

I was once fortunate to play a round of golf with Eric Bristow the once famous dart player who dominated during the 70s/80s.

I myself was once a county player, and during this game we talked about what it takes to become a world class dart player.

Quote, he said you can right the names on the back of a bus ticket of people capable of winning a world championship.

What he means is that no matter what skill levels you have, between the ears is what makes the difference.

To this day I strongly believe this.

Ian.

**pinyo8** · 11-10-2005, 12:08 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

I definitely agree that what it takes to be a top professional is the 6inch between your ears (some old guy used that expression a long time ago so I thought I might as well use it as well).
To me, being a +2 and +4 is really not that much different. Both of these people have the ability to go real low but its all about if they can keep the confidence level up and maintain it throughout the round. Skills and technically speaking, there wouldnt be much difference between the two players.
My aim is to get to about a +2/3 handicap and then will seriously think about turning pro as well. Hopefully I will have the mental edge to perform when it really counts.

**mr3856a** · 11-10-2005, 02:46 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

Originally posted by cct

Retief Goosen turned pro off +2 and Sergio Garcia off +5!! Does that mean Garcia is on average 3 strokes better than Goosen? Goosen is above Garcia in the world golf rankings!!

Obviously a player who turns pro off +4 compared to a player who turns pro off scratch will be better at the start.

Am I missing something here, or is a +4 someone who gets 4 strokes a round? I must be misunderstanding this?...

**shootin4par** · 11-10-2005, 03:19 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

Originally posted by mr3856a

Am I missing something here, or is a +4 someone who gets 4 strokes a round? I must be misunderstanding this?...

regular people are actually a minus handicap, and example would be a bogey golfer who is -18. So after a round the bogey golfer who shoots a 90, then takes away 18, ends up with a net 72. A +4 shoots a 69, then ADDS 4 to his score and ends up with a net 73. If these two played in a hadicapp tourney the bogey golfer would win with his net 72.

**GreeBoman** · 11-10-2005, 03:33 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

Its "easy" to shoot 4 under on a Saturday medal if you are off +4, try doing it against your club pro when you have bet your car or house on it.
Thats what the guys in Tour School are doing, risking their future until they "make it" on the tour. Getting sponsorship and money in the bank is a must have when you have a wife and kids and a mortgage waiting at home.
I dunno if I could do it (probably not as I havent yet!)
Im sure Ricky will pop in to tell us he can though

**Yukon Jack** · 11-10-2005, 04:28 PM

Re: Low handicap not to good

I once read somewhere that you should play 4 good courses that you've never played on 4 consecutive days. If you can shoot under par on each day, you might consider turning pro and going for it. Sound reasonable?

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