Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

I don't think the courses need lengthening just (as posted above) toughened at the key points.

The guy who won the Phoenix was hitting it 300+ (and more +) but keeping it on the short grass - fair enough let him take the reward of a wedge in.

The problem is that Vivay and yes Tiger can hit it a wayward 300 yards and still have a wedge because there's no real trouble waiting for them offline.

So let grow the grass where they play and keep it the rough short and the fairways wide between 230 & 260 where I hope to be

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

Really the only thing lengthing the course does is eliminate the short hitter and does not make it more interesting to watch.

No there are several options (have more risk reward type holes, courses with landing areas that force certain approach shots and equipment issues)but the biggest problem is that the PGA loves guys blasting the ball 350 yds and being 20 under. That sells tickets, that gets golf company endorsements etc. No one has a desire to help the ball strikers. Even the TV coverage focuses on either the drives or the putting. The Pga has gone to wide open courses with little rough for a reason.

Bob

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

Firstly to msklar92, I completely disagree about setting courses up for US opens. The winning score of a golf tournament doesn't in anyway reflect the entertainment value to the fans or the achievement of winning for the players.
I watch the Open every year and the winning score is usually around 10-12 under par. R&A setup courses that are a fair test of all the skills and abilities of the players. How many Opens has tiger won with his erratic tee shots? 2! and only at st. Andrew which is ridiculously short. His other 8 Major win’s (I think!!! Please correct if wrong) are on USPGA configured courses that allow him to recover from poor tee shots. As you say even par wins the tournament!!!! This is the key point. Tiger can make par with a tee shot in the rough. Most of the time Tiger can not make Birdie from the rough. Lengthening the courses and punishing players who can hit fairways from the tee bit can not hit it 300+ average is the problem.

As ogallalabob said in his last post. More risk reward is the answer not lengthening courses. The last 2 tournaments Tiger have won have finished with Par 5’s not easily reachable in 2 and with the greens protected by water. You saw the reward for Tiger hitting the fairway in the playoff at Dubai as opposed to Ernie who didn’t. You saw the reward for Tiger at the Buick for hitting the Fairway on the 72nd hole to make the Birdie to force the playoff.

What is not enjoyable for me anyway is watching golf on USPGA setup courses that are unfairly hard and the whole field are struggling to make par. The USPGA should look more at how the courses are setup by the R&A. More pot bunkers that are a true one shot penalty. All R&A bunker are Penalties. On USPGA courses players aim for bunkers to avoid the rough.

On a lighter note, well done to Luke Donald who I just watched make -10 at Spy Glass! Good lad keep it up

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

I wasn't suggesting they should. I was suggesting that to make the scores closer to par they would have to be set up that way. As I suggested in my next post, I think the courses on tour are hard enough and that most pros have difficulty making cuts from week to week.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

[quote=BigdazUK]I watch the Open every year and the winning score is usually around 10-12 under par. R&A setup courses that are a fair test of all the skills and abilities of the players. How many Opens has tiger won with his erratic tee shots? 2! and only at st. Andrew which is ridiculously short. His other 8 Major win’s (I think!!! Please correct if wrong) are on USPGA configured courses that allow him to recover from poor tee shots. As you say even par wins the tournament!!!! This is the key point. Tiger can make par with a tee shot in the rough. Most of the time Tiger can not make Birdie from the rough. Lengthening the courses and punishing players who can hit fairways from the tee bit can not hit it 300+ average is the problem.

Not disagreeing but I think Tiger has won the Masters 4 times. Augusta seems to suit his game (August plays by their own rules not usga or pga) and the other 3 majors twice each. The US open setup usually does not allow making birdie from the rough. Of all the Majors I think the players generally complain about the dificulty of the setup the most. Usually the courses have very deep rough and very fast greens. The year they they played at Pebble (one of the courses they are playing this week where guys can go out and be 6 or 7 under) Tiger was the only golfer under par, you were penalized for being in the rough.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

What exactly do they have to complain about? They are all playing the same course. They complain because they cant just unleash their drivers and not worry about where the ball is going.

Penalized for being in the rough? Thats what its there for!
How can you give out about not having a good lie in the rough?Madness.
Golf is *not* about the tiny percentage of players who are pros, its about the majority of us normal Joe (and Jenny) Soaps and how we enjoy the game.
Golf needs to rethink itself if it wants to last as a professional sport. Its more enjoyable to watch them play par 3 golf and see them try to get up and down etc than watch boom, pitch, putt.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

I probably have too much time on my hands but I was looking at the scores for the US open from 2002 to 2005. Other than Furyk -8, nothing even close to -10 or -12.

2002 bethpage black - winner Woods -3 all other scores even to +11 for the top 25

2003 winner Furyk - Olympia fields -8, other scores Leaney -5 Perry -1 and Wier -1, scores for top 20 even to +3

2004 Shinnecock - Goosen -4, Mickelson -2 all other top 25 scores from +1 to +12

2005 Pinehurst Campbell even Tiger +2 most scores +5 to +10

So for the past 4 years only 7 scores below par.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

Here are the Open Championship results since i've been going.
Apart from the year ben curtis won which was a very strange year they've been fairly high scoring. I can garauntee that there were very entertaining for the spectators. Pot Hole Bunkers are scary as hell! Players avoid them at all costs. Unlike in the US where players aim for bunkers to avoid the rough.

2005
1 Tiger WOODS
66 67 71 70 274 -14 £720000
2 Colin MONTGOMERIE
71 66 70 72 279 -9 £430000
3T Fred COUPLES
68 71 73 68 280 -8 £242500

2004
1 Todd HAMILTON
71 67 67 69 274 -10 £720000
2 Ernie ELS
69 69 68 68 274 -10 £430000
3 Phil MICKELSON
73 66 68 68 275 -9 £275000

2003
1 Ben CURTIS
72 72 70 69 283 -1 £700000
2T Vijay SINGH
75 70 69 70 284 0 £345000
2T Thomas BJÖRN
73 70 69 72 284 0 £345000

2002
1 Ernie ELS
70 66 72 70 278 -6 £700000
2T Steve ELKINGTON
71 73 68 66 278 -6 £286667
2T Stuart APPLEBY
73 70 70 65 278 -6 £286667

2001
1 David DUVAL
69 73 65 67 274 -10 £600000
2 Niclas FASTH
69 69 72 67 277 -7 £360000
3T Ernie ELS
71 71 67 69 278 -6 £141667

2000
1 Tiger WOODS
67 66 67 69 269 -19 £500000
2T Ernie ELS
66 72 70 69 277 -11 £245000
2T Thomas BJÖRN
69 69 68 71 277 -11 £245000

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

Just a note on pot bunkers:

I played a track called Wooden Sticks in Uxbridge, Ontario. The allure of Wooden Sticks is that it has a bunch of 'mimic' holes - holes based on famous holes from other courses. These include the Church Pew at Oakmont, the 12th and 13th of August (part of the 'amen' corner), and the Postage Stamp at Troon, to name a few.

Well, the postage stamp is guarded by a deeeeeep pot bunker in front. The lip must have been somewhere between 6 and 8 feet tall. I know this, because I hit into it. It's a bad sign when you get to a bunker, and there's a ladder to help you get in and out.

Anyway, I grabbed my 60º and proceeded to get out in one swing. A playing partner, however, needed two with a 54º (he tried to baby the first, and it caught the lip).

I can only imagine how frustrating and difficult these must be to be in - in the fairway, 100+ yards from the green. A great piece of couse design, to be sure!

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

I believe that bunker guarding the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon is called The Coffin. You gotta love the name. I think there are also a group of Bunkers at St Andrews called the Coffins. You know a bunker means business when it's called the coffin.

Lowpost, did you get your shot out of the bunker onto the green? From what I remember about the Postage Stamp was that everyone who went in the coffin had to blast out away from the green. nobody went in the Coffin and made par.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

I got on, and made bogey with a close putt and a tap in.

It never even occured to me to pitch out sideways or backwards.

Good old 60º wedges.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

Good work! I'd Love a go of that bunker. I've played a couple of links courses but i've not been in any bunkers that require a degree in mountaineering to get out of.
I wish there was somewhere near me that had copied world famous holes the island green at Sawgrass is the one that sticks out for me. And the 18th at pebble beach.

Re: Shotmaking, a dying skill?

The island green is hole #17 @ Wooden Sticks. I dunked my first shot, then got on and two putted. Double bogey, or a reload par!