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Can any one help with ruling on a Match play tie. The question is if player A is getting 6 shots for the tie, what happens if it goes to extra holes? Does he get more strokes for sudden death or as I believe (which could be wrong) he only gets 6 shots from the start of the match till its finished. Any help would be fantastic. Cheers Colin
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
The strokes received are for 18 holes. If extra holes are played to determine a tie, strokes are received exactly the same as for the 1st 18 and are taken on the same holes with the corresponding stroke index.Originally posted by colin28269
Think of a 36 hole stroke play competition. You wouldn't expect to receive strokes for the 1st 18 only. -
Re: Handicap for Matchplay
I agree about the 36 hole match play but a sudden death play off i still would have thought that i was only giving 6 shots for the tie. I realise its a hard one too answer but the problem must pop up at most golf clubs.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
You can pretty much take what aaa says to the bank, colin.
Let's assume we have a 9 handicap. Sudden death playoff. If it's played on the handicap 3 hole, he gets a stroke. However, if it's played on the handicap 11 hole, it's played straight up.
In match play, regardless of the format, you're entitled to your strokes.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Since both the "Rules" and the "Decisions" are silent on the matter I suspect that it is down to the committee setting the "Conditions of Competition"; after all you don't always get full handicap for instance.
In this case (even though it goes my interests at present) I'd say that the play off should be on a scratch basis to ensure that the best man wins - the handicapper has had his chance over the 18.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
The Rules do have something to say Rule 33-6 but you were correct to suggest it is down to the committee. In all Clubs that I am familiar with handicaps are only dispensed with in Scratch competitions. I have never known a committee to decide ties in a handicap comp without the handicap continuing in to the extra holes.Originally posted by bdbl
Do you mean that the best man is the lower handicapper and that he should always win? If so, why bother with handicaps at all? Why would anyone bother turning up to play a match against a lower handicapper.In this case (even though it goes my interests at present) I'd say that the play off should be on a scratch basis to ensure that the best man wins - the handicapper has had his chance over the 18.
The handicap is intended to provide a reasonable chance, at least, for the higher handicapper.
If the theory is correct then they should be all square after 18. If handicaps are not applied for the next 18, the low handicapper is almost guaranteed to win. That seems to be a pretty pointless excercise.
He may have had his chance in the 1st 18 but he has no chance in the 2nd.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Ah, a mismatch of intepretations. Yes, absolutely, over a 2nd 18 handicaps should apply.Originally posted by aaa
My point was that on a one-off, one hole play-off that gaining / giving a stroke might be an unfair weighting - which is why even over 18 you generally get 3/4.
Having read my post I didn't actuially explain that too well
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Taking your 3/4 point. Statistics produced by CONGU (and reinforced by figures from the USGA) show that on 3/4 difference the low h'capper will win 61% of the time. When full difference is used this falls to 55%. I have just analysed our KO comps and off 3/4, 68 of the 89 matches played were won by the lower h'cap player. The committee have now decided that next year the full difference will apply.
This is mandatory in Scotland & Ireland and most of Europe (the EGA area). It is recommended by the EGU and the WGU. It is standard practice in the USA.Last edited by aaa; 11-21-2006, 08:52 PM.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
But if the match goes to the 3rd, 7th, 18th ..... extra hole, where are the strokes received?on a one-off, one hole play-off that gaining / giving a stroke might be an unfair weighting
This is why the Stroke Index system was designed for matchplay not strokeplay. Both CONGU and the USGA have recommended procedures (essentially the same) for allocating the SI.
For example they say that SI 1 and 2 should not be allocated to hole 1 or 18 ( or 10 or 9 if some matches may start at the 10th). The odds should be allocated to one half and the evens to the other. Amongst other things it prevents a player giving 2 strokes finding himself giving a stroke on the 1st extra. However, it also lets the player receiving 6 get, on average, 1 stroke in every 3 played. There is too much to include here but suffice to say it is not primarily about relative difficulty.
BUT many clubs do not follow the guidelines.
You will appreciate that SI is irrelevant in strokeplay as the strokes are deducted from the gross score at the end of the round. Except stableford where swings and roundabouts come into play - you may get a stroke on an 'easy' hole but don't one on a harder one.Last edited by aaa; 11-21-2006, 08:53 PM.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Good Morning...
As I understand this ruling, given a 6 shot handicap differential for this notional match, Player A (the lower marker) is having to concede 1 stroke per hole on 6 holes over the course being played on the day of the match, regardless of whether the match goes only 10 holes or 30 holes.
The holes conceded are decided by the course Stroke Index.
It then simply becomes a matter of lot (or past course statistical records) as to which holes (should they be played) the low marker is required to concede a shot on.
Thoughts...???
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Not quite. A gives B 6 strokes in any 18 holes. The strokes are given according to the Stroke Index of the hole. So he gives one stroke on each of SI 1-6 each time the hole is played during the match.Originally posted by Scragger63
eg
A receives 2 strokes from B. Hole 4 is SI 1 and hole 16 is SI 2. but the match is won/lost on the 15th, the 2nd stroke is never actually given.
If the match goes to extra holes and is won/lost on the 23rd (ie 5th extra), B will have received 1 stroke on the 4th, 1 on the 16th and 1 again on the 22nd (ie the 4th again). The 2nd stroke due, if they had reached the 16th again, is no longer relevant.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Yup, we agree completely, you were able to word it more succinctly than I was...
And what I should have said was "Player A (the lower marker) is having to concede 1 stroke per hole on 6 SPECIFIC holes (namely holes 1-6 by Stroke index) over the course being played on the day of the match, regardless of whether the match goes only 10 holes or 30 holes."
What I meant when I said that the holes conceded where then decided by lot, my intent was that the stroke index is specific to each course uniquely (the "Course" being the full 18 holes) and (as I understand it at least) the hole difficulty is statistically determined using past results at the course in question.
But I guess that's another discussion thread altogether...
Cheers
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
You know what, on reflection, you're right. One hole or 18 the handicap should apply.Originally posted by aaa
It was also nice to be persuaded by a reasoned argument with facts rather than the slanging match some message boards descend to - one of the strengths of GTO most of the time.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
Thanks for the comment.Originally posted by Scragger63
Actually the 'hole difficulty' method of allocating SI is not the recommended process. Although you are right in saying this was calculated from previous history. Most handicapping software has got the calculation built in to rank the holes over 1 round or over a number of years if required. Certainly the ones I am familiar with actually print a rider saying that the results should not be used to determine SIs for the course.
As I said, SIs are allocated according to their significance in a match. I can post the CONGU text here but it will take umpteen pages to display. You should be able to find it on the www.congu.co website. But that only supplements the R&A notes, which I don't think are on their website, but published in the Guidance to Running a Competition book.Comment
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Re: Handicap for Matchplay
If you end up in extra holes make sure you use your strokesOriginally posted by bdbl
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