Re: Improving Lie - or not

Not having my rule book handy, to the best of my recall, yes, that is the way I understand the application of the rule in question...

Will check my copy of Do I Get A Drop and see what it says...

More later...

Re: Improving Lie - or not

The second part is spot on.
It's the first part which is not quite right.
You can touch the 'growing stuff' with your practice swing providing you don't damage it such that it improves your swing area. See the decision below.

13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...ision-line.gif

Q. A player’s ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

A. The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.
If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

Re: Improving Lie - or not

You're not allowed to 'create space' for yourself.

I was watching a Nationwide Tour event, and a guy hit the ball into some tall fescue. The cameras stayed on him for 5 full minutes as he discussed with a rules official how to step up and setup to his ball so that he didn't violate rule 13.

The fescue was hip high - so the ruling was that he had to take these giant steps as to try and step as vertically as possible into the fescue (as not to flatten the grass).

It was neat to watch. Another instance is that you're not allowed to bend branches on a low tree to setup. Hit the branch on your swing, sure. Break the branch on your swing, OK. But you can't bend it to get 'in there', and you can't break it on your practice swing.

Re: Improving Lie - or not

Thanks for the explanation.

Without a handy rules official I guess whether or not there is improvement is largely a matter of conscience and judgement (this must be one of the few games where by and large you can still trust your playing partner).

Faced with the same circumstances I might still chip out if I didn't fancy my chances of negotiating the foliage but at least I can make a more informed decision now.

Re: Improving Lie - or not

They take up a lot of space but the decisions below are pretty comprehensive.

13-2/1 Explanation of “Fairly Taking His Stance”
Q. Rule 13-2 states that a player must not improve the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing or his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole by moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds). An exception permits a player to do so in “fairly taking his stance.” What is the significance of “fairly”?

A. Without “fairly,” the exception would permit improvement of position or lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play by anything that could be said to be taking a stance. The use of “fairly” is intended to limit the player to what is reasonably necessary to take a stance for the selected stroke without unduly improving the position of the ball, his lie, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. Thus, in taking his stance for the selected stroke the player should select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit. What is fair must be determined in the light of all circumstances.
Examples of actions which do constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• backing into a branch or young sapling if that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this causes the branch to move out of the way or the sapling to bend or break.
• bending a branch of a tree with the hands in order to get under the tree to play a ball.
Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:
• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.
• standing on a branch to prevent it from interfering with the backswing or stroke.
• hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds for the same purpose.
• bending with a hand a branch obscuring the ball after the stance has been taken.
• bending an interfering branch with the hands, a leg or the body in taking a stance when the stance could have been taken without bending the branch.

13-2/1.1 Player Attempts to Take Stance Fairly But Improves Line of Play by Moving Interfering Growing Object
Q. A player’s ball lies under the branch of a tree. In attempting to take his stance fairly, the player improves his line of play by moving the branch with his body. Before playing, he realizes he could have taken his stance without moving the branch. He abandons his stance and the branch returns to its original position or is returned to its original position by the player. The player then approaches the ball from a different direction, takes his stance without disturbing the branch and makes his stroke. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. When fairly taking his stance the player is required to take his stance in the least intrusive manner that results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. However, as the branch moved as a result of the player’s attempt to take his stance fairly and was returned to its original position before the stroke was made, there is no penalty. Any doubt as to whether the branch returned to its original position should be resolved against the player.
The same principle would apply to fixed artificial objects (e.g., a boundary stake) if the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play is improved as a result of the player’s attempt to take his stance fairly but the object is returned to its original position before the player makes a stroke.