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Curious
My friend was in the Matchplay Club Champs and he was off the green, on the fringe, and he had decided to putt. He had a cigerette but on the green on his line, so he picked it up and threw it away. Anothere player in the foursome picked up on this and said that this was an illegal action and made him forfeit the hole, and therefore lost the match. Is this correct? I belive it is.
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Re: Curious
Nate,
Without looking at the rules I would say that the person who moved the cigarette butt has done so within the rules. It is artificial, thus, a movable obstruction.
I think it's a bit harsh what has happened.
I stand to be corrected. -
Re: Curious
Hi There,
I can't find anything in the rule book that says you can't move a cigarete end, however it does say movable obstructions are natural.....twigs, leaves, worms casts as long as they are not routed or buried.
Firstly I would not accept that this is sportsmanship and although a quick glance I can find anything that says you can't........what if it had been a beer can in the Ryder Cup does it have to stay there?
Not sure lets see what others think.
Ian.Last edited by Ian Hancock; 01-17-2007, 01:58 PM.Comment
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Re: Curious
Where did you find the statement above. It is wrong.Originally posted by Ian Hancock
Natural objects, such as the one listed, are Loose Impediments.
An Obstruction is anything artificial.
Both Loose Impediments and Movable Obstructions may be moved out of the way. Loose Impediments may not be moved however, if the ball is in a hazard.Comment
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Re: Curious
I think the player in the original example was jipped. The rules of golf state:
"Obstructions
An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial
surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured
ice, except:
a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences,
stakes and railings;
b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of
bounds; and
c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an
integral part of the course.
An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved
without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play
and without causing damage. Otherwise it is an
immovable obstruction." (emphasis mine)
US Golf Association Rules of Golf 2004-2007, p31
downloadable at www.randa.org/flash/rules/PDF/RoG2004.pdf
I think a cigarette butt would count as a movable obstruction.Comment
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Re: Curious
JUst being a bit picky, the questioner is in New Zealand, so comes under the authority of the R&A not the USGA (although you have pointed to the R&A website). The Rules of course are exactly the same.Originally posted by millenniumcow
As it happens I find the USGA site ( http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules_of_golf.html ) more friendly for on-line viewing, as the Rules and the relevant Decisions are viewable on the same page. The R&A is however better for downloading as they are in pdf format.
Yes, as a cigarette end is manmade, it is a movable obstruction.I think a cigarette butt would count as a movable obstruction.Comment
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Re: Curious
Without having first checked to be 100% positive (which is just like me) the critical thing here is that even though he was putting, the players ball was not actually lying ON the putting surface.
Yes, I agree that the cigarette butt is a moveable obstruction, however, as the ball was not lying on the putting surface, the obstruction is only able to be moved if it interferes with stance or swing.
I believe that loose impediments & moveable obstructions on the putting surface can only be moved once the ball has reached the green. Not before.
Now, having said that, I'm waiting for my browser to load the randa rules pdf so I can check to be certain...
More later...
Cheers
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Re: Curious
Thanks aaa. I was aware that the original post was a kiwi, but they're just another state of Australia
and we Australians always follow in the US's footsteps.
I'm checking on the last point too.Comment
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Re: Curious
Further:
"24-1. Movable Obstruction
A player may take relief without penalty from a movable
obstruction as follows:
a. If the ball does not lie in or on the obstruction, the
obstruction may be removed. If the ball moves, it must be
replaced, and there is no penalty provided that the
movement of the ball is directly attributable to the removal
of the obstruction. Otherwise, Rule 18-2a applies."
RoG p89
So I think he was within his rights to move the offending butt, no matter where he was on the course but I stand to be corrected if I have missed something.
Cheers.Comment
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Re: Curious
OK, having checked on my favourite rule reference source (www.doigetadrop.com) I was not quite right in my original post earlier and have the following to advise...
Movable obstructions can be removed without penalty, anywhere on the course.
Further, movable obstructions provide 2 advantages over loose impediments. They can be removed from hazards (loose impediments can not) and secondly, if a ball moves as a result of removing the movable obstruction, no penalty is incurred. With loose impediments immunity is only granted on the green.
Cheers
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Re: Curious
Australia is also in the R&A area. The only countries that are in the USGA jurisdiction are the USA and Mexico.Originally posted by millenniumcowThanks aaa. I was aware that the original post was a kiwi, but they're just another state of Australia and we Australians always follow in the US's footsteps.
I'm checking on the last point too.
I can guarantee the cigarette butt status.Comment
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Re: Curious
Originally posted by Ian Hancock
sorry about this post after further viewing:
rule 16.1
(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he doesn't press down.
( vii) the line of a putt must NOT be touched in removing movable obstructions.
I cannot find anything that says you cannot remove a unnatural obstruction off the putting green.
In a bunker you can remove cans, little, cigarete ends but not leaves or twigs, so I don't see why a butt or beer can cannot be removed.
There is one rule although I cannot find it to hand that states should you ball come to rest on the fringe after hitting the green leaving a pitch mark, then the pitch mark cannot be repaired as you are not on the putting surface.
This happened to Harrington a couple of years ago, when you are not on the green you cannot repair it, but you should be ok to move say a beer can or such likes.
Ian.Comment
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Re: Curious
That was what I (and others) said umpteen posts ago. In fact the Rule was actually quoted just after my post.Originally posted by Scragger63Last edited by aaa; 01-17-2007, 02:27 PM.Comment
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Re: Curious
I'm just chiming in to back up scragger.
It happened to me:
Ball hits the right side of the green, checks up, but then leaks off onto the fringe. It rolls right back to behind the ball mark. Since I am NOT on the green, I can NOT fix my line - including moving impediments or obstructions.
I was watching the Wendy's year end Tournament (the 3 tour challenge). It happened to Stads, I believe. Ball on the fringe, short sided, ball mark right on his line. He putted to the high side for a two putt. I thought it was interesting, as I figured a PGA guy would chip over the ball mark.
So, NDC, your friend did indeed lose the hole.Comment
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Re: Curious
What rule did you get that from.Originally posted by LowPost42
I don't know what you mean by ball mark but I assume that it a movable obstruction.
Apart from not being able to move a loose impediment when your ball is in a hazard, you may move LIs or MOs wherever you are. This has been said previously in this thread.
24-1 Movable Obstruction
A player may take relief without penalty from a movable obstruction as follows:
(a) If the ball does not lie in or on the obstruction, the obstruction may be removed. If the ball moves, it must be replaced, and there is no penalty provided that the movement of the ball is directly attributable to the removal of the obstruction. Otherwise, Rule 18-2a applies. (b) If the ball lies in or on the obstruction, the ball may be lifted and the obstruction removed. The ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball lay in or on the
23-1 Loose impediment
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.Comment
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