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**Started2k3** · 02-05-2007, 03:58 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Originally posted by peterj

...apart from the fact that women golfers might have shorter drives than men...

This might be a large part of it.

2006:
PGA #1 driving average 319.6 yds
PGA #20 driving average 300.0 yds

LPGA #1 driving average 284.5 yds (would be 139th on PGA tour)
LPGA #20 driving average 260.0 yds (off the bottom on PGA tour)

This may not seem like much but think about this another way. The longer you are off the tee the wider the gap between clubs.

If you are 170yds out which club are these players most likely to use.
PGA#1 - 9 iron
PGA#20 - 8 iron
LPGA#1 - 7 iron
LPGA#20 - 6 iron
LPGA last gal - 3 iron

Who do you think has the biggest advantage? Nice high 9 iron or a low 3 iron?

To even the playing field you would need to take this into account as well as the drive distance.

**peterj** · 02-06-2007, 06:42 AM

Re: women vs men's golf

what you say makes perfect sense - except i always thought that the field WAS made even by the fact that the length of each hole played by the women was made shorter by tee-ing off from the ladies Tee. surely this takes the longer drive issue out of the question? is the course shorter in a womens tournament ?

**Scragger63** · 02-06-2007, 07:32 AM

Re: women vs men's golf

I stand open to correction on all of what follows here...

Yes, I believe the ladies do play shorter holes on the LPGA tour.

That said, even (as a for instance) with shorter tee placements for the Ladies, Let's say Tiger and Annika were both 142 yds out off the tee, Tiger might hit 9 iron and Annika might take 7 iron, maybe even 6 (yes, I am guessing here). The point is, the playing field, even with the red markers being shorter than the black, is still not quite EVEN...

From memory, "they" once they tried a one off match where the 100th ranked man played the 1st ranked woman on the Pro Tennis tours and I don't think the result was at all close.

For me, as a realistic competitive idea, I hope it remains a Water Cooler discussion topic only...

But, thats just me and my 2c...

Cheers

**Started2k3** · 02-06-2007, 12:54 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Comparing the top 20 men and women (2006) we see that the women are about 12-15% shorter off the tee than the men. However, on average the women play courses that are about 10% shorter (pga tour vs lpga tour). This 2-5% will affect the other statistics (GIR, scoring, etc) making the women appear to not score as well as the men.

If you only take the tee shot into account then there is a disadvantage for the women on the par 4s and 5s.

For example, a par 4 where the course designer wants both #20 players to use the driver and a 7 iron. The men's hole will measure about 483 yds, while the women's would measure about 418 yds. A difference of 64 yds, and only 40 yds of that is for the adjusted tee shot.

After the tee shot the woman would be about 24 yds ahead of the man ... this is a huge landing area. Anytime the placement of hazards (water or a narrow pass between fairway bunkers) results in both men and women golfer to land in the same area ... the men have the advantage since they are using a more lofted club.

**jambalaya** · 02-06-2007, 02:38 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Men are better tee to green period. It has been proven by Michelle Wie, Anika Sorenstam and others who have tried to make a cut at events that don't have many of the top male players in attendance. End of story.

The gap has closed to be sure but it is still quite significant.

As for women's golf in general, the interest seems to have grown quite a bit in recent years. I for one look forward to the women's events. Very competitive and fun to watch. Another factor for me is the number of American golfers in contention. People like Paula Creamer, Natalie Gulbis, Kristie Kerr, Kristina Kim, Morgan Pressel and others make it more interesting to me. And frankly, they are more fit women who don't look like dikes on the course which makes viewing more pleasureable. Not a politically correct thing to say but a factor not to be ignored.

**edshaw** · 02-06-2007, 02:58 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Of course, it's only the politics of social phenomena.

I call the exception of Michelle Wie. She is Nike's
clever way of symbolically legitimizing the
exploitation of child labor in Asia, a Nike specialty.
Don't you see, as you enjoy the spectacle, you
subconciously grow a partnership with Nike,
hence, become more likely to go easy on them.

**jambalaya** · 02-06-2007, 03:35 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

An interesting tie in. I for one avoid Nike products. I am a capitalist pig but still reject being manipulated.

**GreeBoman** · 02-06-2007, 04:24 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

The issue is that you are not comparing like with like.
To get a "proper" comparison you would need to talk two golfers with similiar hitting distances.
Then match them up on the same course, same tees and see what happens.
Otherwise you might aswell compare the #1 junior champion to Tiger...

**GolfJunkieSr** · 02-06-2007, 11:07 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Take Corey Pavin, and put him up against Annika Sorenstam on a "Shell's Wonderful World Of Golf" show.............at Augusta National. My guess is that Pavin would still win. GJS

**Scragger63** · 02-07-2007, 12:45 AM

Re: women vs men's golf

Here's an interesting idea, a one off Modified Foursomes event.

The two teams are as follows:

LPGA Tour Team: Karin Sjodin, Annika Sorenstam, Karrie Webb & Lorena Ochoa.
PGA Tour Team: Bob Tway, Tim Herron, Davis Love III & Steve Stricker.

Karin was #1 on the LPGA Average Driving Distance Stat Sheet with 284.5yards.
Bob was #139 on the PGA list with the same distance.

Annika was #2 on the LPGA GIR Stat Sheet with 75.1%,
Tim was #12 on the PGA list with 75.0%.

Karrie was #2 on the LPGA Putts per GIR Stat Sheet with 1.75 putts,
Davis was tied for 20th on the PGA list with the same figure.

Lorena was #1 on the LPGA Scoring Average Stat Sheet with 69.24,
Steve was #5 on the PGA list with 69.37.

So, Karin & Bob do the driving, then Annika and Tim hit the approaches and Karrie & Davis do the putting. I put Lorena and Steve as 4ths to substitute if someone was having an "off day".

But, which course should they play...???

**Started2k3** · 02-07-2007, 12:41 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Scragger, the fourth should be the matching up&down % people for the holes where Annika didn't get the GIR.

**Scragger63** · 02-07-2007, 09:50 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Hey Started...

Did check for "scrambling" figures for the LPGA, but, they only have "Sand Saves" as a stats category whilst the PGA have "Scrambling" as a category. For mine they weren't compatible really and when I checked it anyways, the leading LPGA player was Kim Williams with 62.2% and the closest matching PGA player was one Eldrick Woods who was tied for 10th from memory.

For me the interest in the exercise was in the relative positions between the two tours in the various categories.

It was a quiet Sunday night at home with nothing much on the telly when I was pondering this idea...

Cheers

**Wildbore** · 02-09-2007, 09:28 AM

Re: women vs men's golf

Originally posted by peterj

i was wondering what the members here think about the difference between the quality of women golfers vs men golfers - clearly men tennis players at the top level would beat the top female players (surely?!) - but, apart from the fact that women golfers might have shorter drives than men, do you think there is a case to be made that men are in general better golfers than women?

Men are better at women in any sport requiring physical strength. It doesen't take a genius to figure this out.

Why isn't women's golf as popular as men's? Gee, maybe its because men are better golfers, and the PGA Tour has been around longer to draw more of a fan base.

Why does womens tennis draw alot of popularity in comparison to mens tennis? Probably because women and men play in the same events, they just play their own gender in those events. Whereas when an LPGA event is on, there is always a PGA Tour event on, in addition to other events, that draw away from the women's game.

Originally posted by Peter

- i ask this because it seems to me that a) mens' final scores at tournaments seem lower than the womens' - and b) there is such a disproportionate public interest in men's golf compared to that of women's golf (unlike in tennis in which there is a huge female following) - Sorenstam and one or two other might be at the top - but there are heaps of male superstar golfers. it just seems odd to me.

There are heaps of top female golfers too. Just because the media doesen't hype them like the male players, doesen't mean they aren't there.

It is completely understandable to someone who isn't ignorant.

Originally posted by peter

and for that matter why are there hardly any events where men compete against women if both sexes ARE in fact considered to be of equal skill? (for some reason one only hears of Michelle Wie doing this - another thing i dont quite understand !) -

is this just historical chauvism - or what?

They aren't considered equal in skill, and they never will be.

Michelle Wie is an exception. Maybe you should go back to grade 1 if you don't know what an exception is.

**BrianW** · 02-09-2007, 01:44 PM

Re: women vs men's golf

Originally posted by Wildbore

Men are better at women in any sport requiring physical strength. It doesen't take a genius to figure this out.

Why isn't women's golf as popular as men's? Gee, maybe its because men are better golfers, and the PGA Tour has been around longer to draw more of a fan base.

Why does womens tennis draw alot of popularity in comparison to mens tennis? Probably because women and men play in the same events, they just play their own gender in those events. Whereas when an LPGA event is on, there is always a PGA Tour event on, in addition to other events, that draw away from the women's game.

There are heaps of top female golfers too. Just because the media doesen't hype them like the male players, doesen't mean they aren't there.

It is completely understandable to someone who isn't ignorant.

They aren't considered equal in skill, and they never will be.

Michelle Wie is an exception. Maybe you should go back to grade 1 if you don't know what an exception is.

Dear Mr Wildbore,

You are mixing up strength with skill. Regarding your rude and brusque manner when replying to peterj's original posting, I think you should get back to school and learn some manners.

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