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**Martin Levac** · 07-02-2007, 09:19 AM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by BrianW View Post

We could look at the ball flight Martin, that's a fair test of tolerances.

Come on now just say something like "Fair point" or "yes, that may work" Go on try it, pretty please!

Ball flight is part of the desired result. I asked if there was something more than the desired result and in accordance with the rules. Todd wrote "Sound technique is any method which, if executed within some range of tolerances, produces the desired results." Do you think there is more to it than just the desired result and in accordance with the rules, Brian? If so, then explain.

**bill reed** · 07-02-2007, 09:50 AM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

hi martin
i understood your first post but after that you seemed to want others to explane to you what you ment by what you wrote???
when you pratice with an aim, that can be distance gained or the flight of the ball as brian said then you have a target to aim at and with the right technique and aplication you can achive your goal. i dont understand what rules you mean????
i seem to have lost track of what your were getting at in the later posts???
sorry???
bill

**BrianW** · 07-02-2007, 10:28 AM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by Martin Levac View Post

Ball flight is part of the desired result. I asked if there was something more than the desired result and in accordance with the rules. Todd wrote "Sound technique is any method which, if executed within some range of tolerances, produces the desired results." Do you think there is more to it than just the desired result and in accordance with the rules, Brian? If so, then explain.

I just don't follow the relationship between the Rules of Golf and the methodology of creating good ball flight? The rules don't care if we slice, hook, hit in the water, bunkers, clubhouse windows or trees.

You have stated your opinion and as I have suggested , it seems that you either cannot or will-not move away from it and accept that others may also have valid views on the subject. In that case would it not be best for you to just state it, something like "I have explained my theory and there is no point in suggesting to me that it may be wrong or flawed as I am certain that my understanding is better than yours"

Martin, you have posted this exact same subject many times now and have engaged with others using the same unrelenting, almost robotic and rhetorical methods of discussion. I would suggest you either lighten it up a little or make the statement.

**Martin Levac** · 07-02-2007, 07:11 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by BrianW View Post

I just don't follow the relationship between the Rules of Golf and the methodology of creating good ball flight? The rules don't care if we slice, hook, hit in the water, bunkers, clubhouse windows or trees.

Rule 14/14-1 is what I'm refering to when I say that the technique must be in accordance with the rules. There are other rules that restrict the method we use the club such as when we play the ball in a hazard, for instance.

(direct quote)

14/14-1 Striking the Ball/Ball to be faily struck at

"The ball must be fairly struck at with the head of the club and must not be pushed, s****ed or spooned."

As we can see, the rule refers to a specific technique that must not be used "pushed, s****ed or spooned". If either of those techniques is used, then it is not in accordance with the rules therefore incorrect and a penalty is incurred.

Execution and result are two separate actions. The execution is the swing and the stroke while the result is where the ball goes and lands. What requirement is there other than to produce the desired result and in accordance with the rules?

**BrianW** · 07-02-2007, 08:05 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by Martin Levac View Post

Rule 14/14-1 is what I'm refering to when I say that the technique must be in accordance with the rules. There are other rules that restrict the method we use the club such as when we play the ball in a hazard, for instance.

(direct quote)

14/14-1 Striking the Ball/Ball to be faily struck at

"The ball must be fairly struck at with the head of the club and must not be pushed, s****ed or spooned."

As we can see, the rule refers to a specific technique that must not be used "pushed, s****ed or spooned". If either of those techniques is used, then it is not in accordance with the rules therefore incorrect and a penalty is incurred.

Execution and result are two separate actions. The execution is the swing and the stroke while the result is where the ball goes and lands. What requirement is there other than to produce the desired result and in accordance with the rules?

More gobbledygook Martin, your doing it again. Are you a politician by any chance? Why don't you just make my suggested statement then we can all get on with something more productive.

**slater170** · 07-02-2007, 08:28 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

FFS

PUT A BALL DOWN, SET YOUR GRIP,AIM,POSTURE AND BALL POSITION
SWING BACK AND SWING FORWARD LETTING THE BALL GET IN THE WAY OF THE CLUBHEAD !

THERE YOU GO SORTED IN A COUPLE OF SENTENCES

**Martin Levac** · 07-02-2007, 08:49 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by BrianW View Post

More gobbledygook Martin, your doing it again. Are you a politician by any chance? Why don't you just make my suggested statement then we can all get on with something more productive.

gobbledygook

language charactirized by circumlocution and jargon, usually hard to understand.

I think I write in clear and concise sentences so I'm not writing in a roundabout way. I do use the jargon associated with golf but this is a golf forum so I expect all members to at least make an effort at comprehension of this jargon. If what I write is hard to understand for you, then say so and I'll bring clarification. If you still have difficulty in understanding what I write despite all my efforts at making it clear, concise and understandable, then I am powerless to do any more.

I remind you that the subject of this thread is "Practice: Purpose and Method" I wish to stick to that subject even if you do not.

**BrianW** · 07-02-2007, 09:20 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by Martin Levac View Post

gobbledygook

language charactirized by circumlocution and jargon, usually hard to understand.

I think I write in clear and concise sentences so I'm not writing in a roundabout way. I do use the jargon associated with golf but this is a golf forum so I expect all members to at least make an effort at comprehension of this jargon. If what I write is hard to understand for you, then say so and I'll bring clarification. If you still have difficulty in understanding what I write despite all my efforts at making it clear, concise and understandable, then I am powerless to do any more.

I remind you that the subject of this thread is "Practice: Purpose and Method" I wish to stick to that subject even if you do not.

Martin, you just don't get it, every time you repeat this thread and I have seen it four times at least, it ends up the same. You make this over long statement about practice, purpose and method, you appear to invite others to join in a debate then you repeat your statement in more and more unnecessary detail until everyone else looses the will to live. Every time you do this you alienate other members by your seemingly intransient attitude(don't bother to give the dictionary meaning).

OK, I think that you honestly don't see it that way so I guess I should also loose the will, actually I have now. Bye.

**Martin Levac** · 07-02-2007, 09:36 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by BrianW View Post

Martin, you just don't get it, every time you repeat this thread and I have seen it four times at least, it ends up the same. You make this over long statement about practice, purpose and method, you appear to invite others to join in a debate then you repeat your statement in more and more unnecessary detail until everyone else looses the will to live. Every time you do this you alienate other members by your seemingly intransient attitude(don't bother to give the dictionary meaning).

OK, I think that you honestly don't see it that way so I guess I should also loose the will, actually I have now. Bye.

I'm sorry Brian if I have offended you in any way. Please accept my apology. Did you want to discuss the subject of this thread?

**BrianW** · 07-02-2007, 09:45 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by Martin Levac View Post

I'm sorry Brian if I have offended you in any way. Please accept my apology. Did you want to discuss the subject of this thread?

Martin,
No you have not offended me, I am not that sensitive. I guess I have been a bit sarcastic here and I also apologise for that. You are a clever person and most articulate, I only suggest that you adopt a more conciliatory manner in your discussions, this will encourage more members to engage with you in debate and make for more interesting reading.

**Martin Levac** · 07-02-2007, 10:21 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by bill reed View Post

hi martin
i understood your first post but after that you seemed to want others to explane to you what you ment by what you wrote???
when you pratice with an aim, that can be distance gained or the flight of the ball as brian said then you have a target to aim at and with the right technique and aplication you can achive your goal. i dont understand what rules you mean????
i seem to have lost track of what your were getting at in the later posts???
sorry???
bill

Some have argued that we must not simply practice, instead we must practice the right things to begin with. I'm trying to find out what these right things are by asking what additional requirement there is other than to produce the desired result and in accordance with the rules. Todd gave us the "execution within a range of tolerances" but hasn't given us a way to determine what this range of tolerances is, yet. Slater170 has given a short and concise description of the correct technique.

I contend that the only requirement for a technique to be correct is to produce the desired result (how and where the ball goes) and in accordance with the rules (rule 14/14-1 for instance). I also contend that practice is the solution to an incorrect technique. I explain as much in my original text.

Think of the idiom "practice makes perfect". Some have said "no, it's perfect practice that makes perfect". The logic here is if we don't practice the right things to begin with, then practice is useless because we'd practice the wrong things. I want to know what the right things are so I asked.

What do you think the right things are aside from producing the desired result and in accordance with the rules?

**ubizmo** · 07-02-2007, 10:57 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Martin, some of our disagreement may be merely verbal. That may be interesting, but probably only to us. One point that appears to be substantive and not merely verbal is about practice of drills, i.e., practice that does not comprise rehearsals of actual golf strokes, but only parts of them, or other movement drills intended to make the execution of technique "easier," or more likely to be successful.

Case in point: the right-hand drill that we mention so often here. Apparently this is not your idea of appropriate practice; others think it's very useful. Maybe we should discuss that.

**takinitdeep** · 07-02-2007, 11:37 PM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

I resemble the remark about 1st graders, LOL but would not describe my fellow posters that way.
Actually when the right shoulder is absorbing the shock, the left hand/wrist should be flat or bowed and the right hand/wrist should be bent back on itself and left hand should be ahead of the ball at impact.
One mistake not to make, fail to make a shoulder turn and the right shoulder has no chance, the wrists will not hinge to your liking, and, all sorts of things will happen to the ball-none of them any good.
Yikes, its so dry here the gators are coming on land to beg for a drink.

Originally posted by cmays View Post

When the right shoulder for the right handed golfer reaches the bottom of it's swing arch you should hear a loud noise like a cannon being fired and the sound of air rushing into the vacum or void, where the ball once laid.

The same right shoulder that absorbs the kickback from an rifle should absorb the blow of impact when striking the ball and continue forward.

How do you practice this?

With Simplicity.

Martin:

You write well, I wish I had your skills, but when you are addressing or teaching 1st graders you need to get down on their level.

**Martin Levac** · 07-03-2007, 01:00 AM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Originally posted by takinitdeep View Post

Actually when the right shoulder is absorbing the shock, the left hand/wrist should be flat or bowed and the right hand/wrist should be bent back on itself and left hand should be ahead of the ball at impact.
One mistake not to make, fail to make a shoulder turn and the right shoulder has no chance, the wrists will not hinge to your liking, and, all sorts of things will happen to the ball-none of them any good.

There are two points here. The flat/bowed left wrist//bent right wrist//hands ahead is one. The other is the shoulder turn.

Are those two points the right things to practice? Are they a requirement for my technique to be correct aside from producing the desired result and in accordance with the rules?

Does the shoulder turn guarantee the desired result? Conversely, if I don't turn the shoulders, does it guarantee an undesirable result? Is turning the shoulders the only way to produce the desired result? Or can I do something else? I want to know if my technique must conform to some ideal type such as Ben Hogan's "modern fundamentals of golf" in order to be deemed correct. Even if, when it doesn't conform to anything, I produce the desired result and in accordance with the rules anyway?

**Scragger63** · 07-03-2007, 01:46 AM

Re: Practice: Purpose and Method

Wow... Talk about semantics......

OK, my 2c goes something like this...

This game is just that, a game...

The fact that a select few earn a pretty handsome living playing a game is reflective of our society. No more, no less.

To my mind, there is no one "CORRECT" way to play our game that suits all those that play out there. There are far too many variables in play. (Not to mention a rule book seemingly written by a lawyer with an attitude problem.)

This is borne out by the fact that IF we were to limit our "sample population" to the 246 guys that play on the PGA Tour, then you'll find about 246 (my own conservative estimate, no more no less) golf swings that are SIMILAR, but not THE SAME.

This is all about "Trial and Error" and each and every INDIVIDUAL finding the specific technique that works for them and then, and only IF they want to, practicing THAT specific technique that works for them.

Practice is not compulsory. That said though, IF you are going to practice, then you should practice that specific technique that works for you, not one that doesn't. Half the fun in this game is challenging yourself to find what it is that works.

As I said in the first of however many threads Martin has initiated here on this subject:

"I really have to stop practicing hitting the ball into the trees"...

Hmmm...

OK, enough, puts soap box away...

Cheers

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