Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Shaft Flex Importance?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shaft Flex Importance?

    Fellow golfers I need some advice. I have a Cleveland gap wedge (48 degrees bent from 50), in my bag that is absolutely my favorite, easiest to hit, rarely fat or thin, go to club under pressure. Even when I make a bad swing I still get away with it most of the time. My question to you experts is can I have the rest of my irons set up to the same exact specs as my wedge or is this not a good idea? The wedge has a rifle 5.5 shaft, standard lenth, 48 degrees. I hit this club as much as possible anywhere from 125 yards to greenside depending on the shot requirement. I have titliest 695 MB irons with TT Dynamic Gold S300 stiff shafts. I'm wondering about going to rifles/project x, whichever ones match the swing weight and flex of my wedge.

    Please let me know what I should do. I'm concerned about setting up my irons based on how well I hit the wedge. I hit my regular irons ok, but no where near as solid and consistantly as my gap wedge. I am a 5 handicap.

    Thanks for any help!
    D J B Z

  • #2
    Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

    I'd setup the rest of my clubs based on the one I hit the best... to me it's a no-brainer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

      hi lowpost
      would you say that taking say a 5 iron and his wedge that works so good to a good fitter and have him set the 5 iron up the same as the wedge and then try the 5 iron to see how he gets on and if its good get the rest made up with the same swing set up is the best way to do it or would it be better being fitted and then have the clubs all done. i know setting up the right shaft has a lot to do with how it feels as well as the results.
      cheers
      bill

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

        A golf club is a lever

        On a scale of best control to worse control. No lever allows most control. Short lever allows more control than long lever. Long lever allows least control of all. Rigidity also affects control. Most rigid lever allows greatest control. Most flexible lever allows least control.

        What this means to us golfers. A short club not only allows greatest control, it also hides the errors the most. When we make a mistake, the short club hides it well. The scale of error correction is much more subtle with a short club than with a long club such as the driver. The errors we make with the driver are gross and very obvious.

        So, the club you hit best is short and probably has the highest rigidity of all your clubs. You can strike the ball best with this club and hit it closest to your target than any other. Also, since the club can only be used for short distances, any error with this club will be reduced due to its inability to send the ball very far.

        Feeling the hit

        A side effect of club rigidity is the feedback we get from the stroke. The more rigid it is, the more feedback we get. This is the reason we recommend flexible shafts to old people, women and beginners. We consider old people, women and beginners not proficient enough to strike the ball well and thus we recommend they select shafts that will dampen this feedback the greatest for best comfort. But we don't say that in the ads since we also want to sell clubs. We don't want to insult the customers away, now.

        This feedback is very important to professional players. This is what allows them to learn from their mistake. Without this feedback, they wouldn't know if they struck the ball well or not and why the ball flies the way it does. As a result, they wouldn't be able to bring the appropriate corrections, if any. In other words, we won't see a successful pro with either very long clubs or very flexible clubs any time soon.

        I recommend you select the most rigid club you can find for best control.
        Last edited by Martin Levac; 12-23-2007, 08:11 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

          Originally posted by bill reed View Post
          hi lowpost
          would you say that taking say a 5 iron and his wedge that works so good to a good fitter and have him set the 5 iron up the same as the wedge and then try the 5 iron to see how he gets on and if its good get the rest made up with the same swing set up is the best way to do it or would it be better being fitted and then have the clubs all done. i know setting up the right shaft has a lot to do with how it feels as well as the results.
          cheers
          bill
          Hey Bill,

          In my own shop I would blueprint the wedge, take a few measurements (WTF, SS, tempo - I never let the customer see the numbers on the box, I always tell them it's a tempo timer, which it is but it also records SS).

          Then I'd compare his wedge to his recommended TLT series, and most likely offer a demo club to hit - just to see if he likes it as much or better than his current club. I think it would be worthwhile to bring your favourite iron as well, just for bluepriting and cross comparison options. Martin does a great job of explaining why wedges work for lots of people - the short length + lots of backspin = relatively straight shots with wedges!

          You've basically identified the two main methods to follow, following a fitting: retrofit the current equipment based on specs, or build new.

          I personally believe that MOST people who want to score better should be playing the heaviest, stiffest shaft they can find in their clubs - and more or less all clubs. Now, why do I say this (especially in light of how much Ian loves his 50g shaft in his Burner)?

          The bulk of golfers somehow figure that greater length is the answer to how they'd score better. They'd score better if they were longer. IMO, most golfers have contact issues borne of tempo issues. The other culprit seems to me to be very active hands and forearms. Which is more easily manipulated - light club or heavy club? Which is easier to swing smoothly, repeatedly - light club or heavy club? OK, so evidence for a smooth, repeating swing (due to the elimination of the ability to manipulate) comes from a heavy shaft.

          But why stiffer rather than softer? The answer here is toe droop. First, we have toe droop because the CoG of the head wants to get in-line with the shaft when the club is swung - this is centrifugal force at its best. So the toe bends down as much as the shaft will allow. A softer shaft will allow more bend. We recently had an interesting discussion on another forum regarding TLT and why wood heads are not built to the lie spec of the head, but rather are built for a lie spec 13° flatter than the head spec. The answer is the CoG is further away from the shaft, so there's more toe droop. And for the average golfer playing some stock S flex shaft, it happens. There were some nice pictures taken of some touring pros shoing 8° of toe droop in their drivers. So what happened to the other 5° that is recommended for TLT? The shaft ate it. The fellows on tour are using very stiff shafts - and stiff shafts don't allow for as much droop. I'm sure if they were playing S flex Aldila NV's and Protos, they'd be approaching or hitting that 13° mark.

          The other contributing factor is the forward bending of the shaft around impact for those that release late (for those that release early or mid, this is usually a non-issue as the forward bending is done long before impact). The softer your shaft, the more forward bend you'll have, so the more dynamic loft you'll add to the shot. This is very difficult to control (this forward bending) so it's why Tour pros play as stiff a shaft as they can handle the feel of. The limited bending of a much stiffer shaft means that impact and ball flight are much more repeatable and much more consistent.

          It's repeatability and consistency that allow for good scoring - not blasting it by your buddies time and again.



          But what about Ian's Burner? How come that works? This is the reason I use words like 'most' and 'should'. For folks like Ian and his Burner. There comes a point where a 130g iron shaft and a 100g wood shaft become laborious to swing. Inconsistency creeps in as strength diminishes, so we have to back off the weight.

          Also, some folks have incredible tempo - and don't need the extra weight to help smooth them out. I suspect Ian is one of these golfers, and therefore can use a lighter shaft to help bring back some distance as he's not out of control with it. I still think he should be using the stiffest shaft he can handle the feel of, though. And that's a big thing - feel. Stiff shafts are very, shall we say, communicative through vibration - and the softer the shaft the less vibration they communicate. Vibration and sound at impact are what I understand to be the two biggest contibutors to feel, but the bending feel of the shaft also plays a part and cannot be ignored.

          So needless to say it's not simple or easy to necessarily determine what any particular golfer should be doing, but I've seen and have heard of others having very good success with heavier, stiffer shafts. Consistency goes up (while giving up a little feel) and ball striking improves. The very tough part is figuring out just how much weight and stiffness you can handle.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

            Interesting insights both Martin and Lowpost gives us.

            But why on earth do so many players play sketchy Regular shaft, then?

            Shouldnt every hacker in town be swinging industrial strenght hardened solid steel shafts?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

              Mox, the hackers should be playing the lightest, most flexible clubs they should - and if they're really into distance and appearances, then they should be picking the 'next loft down' (ie they need 13°, so they should pick an 11° driver) and then get it hand picked as high as possible - so in essence, they'll play a driver stamped 11° but actually is 12.7° or something like that.

              The guys looking for maximum distance should play lightweight low-flex shafts.

              Likewise, you should back off the weight if you find yourself laboring to swing the clubs on the last 3 holes, and not everybody can handle the harshness of an X flex shaft tipped to length.

              Ultimately, the answer to your question is ignorance and/or tradition.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                Okay, Ben - NOW you really lost me!

                Are you now suggesting light and flexible for hackers?

                Doesn't that also mean droopy and twisty clubs with little control?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                  hi lowpost
                  i can see why experience in fitting of clubs is much sort after as there is a lot of it that seems to be based on judgment of the fitter in setting up a good club/player match. would i be right in thinking that graphite shafted irons would be better for the higher handicap players in most cases, as it would give then a lighter club and also a faster swing speed. i do understand what you said about a heavier club being better for some golfers such as Ian with his Burner.
                  also with high handicap player it sounds like a R or X shaft or in between would be best.
                  cheers
                  bill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                    Thanks for the insight. If it helps, I play an old orlimar 14+ 3w with TT EI 70 stiff, 44", that as you know is a very heavy shaft also. I have had that club for over 5 years and don't even look to see what new technology is on the market it just works for me. My driver is a Taylor Burner TP, 8.5, with a fujikawa vista tour 60 stiff flex, which is the same shaft as my 5w. I have had all of these shafts "Pured" but did not with my irons as I'm wanting to change them. The more I think about it, I do better with the heavier shafts. I think I will take my 7I and 4I and get them frequency matched to the wedge and then go from there. I know that the pros have everything in their bag set up just for them and I want the same advantage!
                    Regards,
                    D J B Z

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                      Welcome to my world (I prefer an ordered world, myself - even if I must rule it through a posture of madness!).

                      If everyone I fit only wanted to score better - regardless of the resultant changes to their gear - I would pretty much unilaterally put everyone in the heaviest, stiffest shaft they could swing 60 times.

                      At first glance, one would assume that due to the heavy, stiff shafts that there would be distance loss due to slower swing speeds and lower launch conditions.

                      However, due to the increase in the repeatability of the swing and the resultant improvement in contact, distance stays the same or increases as more balls find the sweet spot more often.

                      But this is for those whose sole priority is better scoring - achieved through a) consistent swing planes and paths and b) more consistent yardages due to consistents launch angles and swing characteristics.





                      Now, this said, the more consistent a golfer you are, and the better your swing, the more able you are to play a wider variety of gear. Once you have consistency, we can go about maximising distance. Most golfers have this backwards - they want max distance and figure consistency will come (isn't this game ALL ABOUT the opposite of the logical conclusion?).

                      This is why I made the comment that the weekend hacker - who is all about out driving his buddies and crushing the most lofted club he can from 150 - should be playing the lightest, most flexible clubs he can still hit OK to achieve his goal. He's the guy who gets the 1 out of 10 absolute bomb and decides that's the yardage he'll play for. Who isn't kidding when he talks about a half wedge from 150 - even though it only felt like it and he didn't realise he'd grabbed his 8 iron instead, but plays the PW since it happened once. Since his goal is absolute distance, that's what we give him - long, loose clubs that do a great job of letting loose long balls once in a while.

                      DJ, if I were you, I'd get that Orlimar blueprinted, just in case you need to replace it with something. If that's you in your avatar, I'll assume heavy, stiff shafts and higher swingweights are your bread and butter!

                      And please get all your shafts pured - at the very least FLO'd (IMO spines are almost irrelevant in all but the cheapest of shafts these days).
                      But what about the middle ground guy - who wants to be long, but wants to score well? (He sure sounds like almost every golfer I've met!) We find the stiffest, heaviest shaft he can handle. Then once he's consistent, we start lightening the shaft weight to increase SS. Once he starts mishitting the lighter shafts, we've detected our 'optimum' range - the place where the shaft is light enough for him to generate swing speed yet heavy enough that he can't get too handsy or loses control. For flex? I still think you should play the stiffest club you can handle the feel of. You still want consistency in ball flight and launch angle, and a wet noodle will not give you that. Every now and then it will whip in and you'll get the perfect strike, but more often than not you'll spray it. Hence Ian & his Burner - he can control to his liking the 50g shaft, but still plays it as stiff as he can stand.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                        Thanks again Low Post. I am sort of a perfectioness and while that and golf don't mix, I will explain how I derive pleasure from the game. I know how to score and have been blessed with great hand eye coordination dating back to my tournament tennis days. That has my short game very sound. I am a five who can shoot par on occasion but usually right around my cap. If I shoot even, but s****e it around, I'm pissed! If I shoot 77, but shape some iron shots, lay up on a par five and stick my wedge to five feet and make birdie on hole where I might have reached in two from 250 if I hit it pure, I'm ecstatic. You see, I have played long enough to know that I will never be the longest guy off the tee, so I have resided to fact that I must become a better ball striker and learn to "Play golf", not learn new swing mechanics to hit it further. The part of my game that gives me the most trouble is my iron play so that's why I'm trying to get my clubs at fit to me as possible. I am going to put a rifle 6.0 in to start and see if I like that and then go from there.

                        Yes that is me in the avatar doing my second favorite hobby in Florida! By the way we cut that barracuda into about 6 pieces and caught three goliath grouper that all weighed over 100lbs each!

                        Regards,
                        D J B Z

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                          DBJZ, you may find you want to try a rifle 7.0...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                            I am a bit late with this thread but will post my pennyworth.

                            The average golf handicap is around 28 and I think most club golfers will be able to play with a set of standard, off the rack clubs. OK shaft length may need looking at but as regards make, shaft flex etc they will see little improvement unless they get down near scratch.

                            The place for them to invest for improved playing is in ball contact, shot direction, repertoire of shots, putting, course management and practice. Mind, there is nothing wrong in purchasing new gear if it makes you feel better.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Shaft Flex Importance?

                              Originally posted by BrianW View Post
                              I am a bit late with this thread but will post my pennyworth.

                              The average golf handicap is around 28 and I think most club golfers will be able to play with a set of standard, off the rack clubs. OK shaft length may need looking at but as regards make, shaft flex etc they will see little improvement unless they get down near scratch.

                              The place for them to invest for improved playing is in ball contact, shot direction, repertoire of shots, putting, course management and practice. Mind, there is nothing wrong in purchasing new gear if it makes you feel better.
                              Phew Brian that's even more controversial than my views on the total futility of video analysis for the same group of players.

                              With the addition of adjusting the lie on a standard set I don't think you're a million miles off the mark.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X