Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Why would you want the forged ones?
Because of the feel?
Not according to Tom Wishon....who was asked...

Question: How Do Cast Irons and Forged Irons Compare?


Answer: The terms "cast" and "forged" simply refer to the manufacturing process used to form the shape of the iron head.

Casting always involves turning the metal from which the ironhead is to be made into its molten, liquid state, after which it is poured into a mold to form the ironhead design.

Forging involves literally pounding or compressing the metal, in its solid form, from which the ironhead is made into the designed shape of the ironhead, after which a number of other machining and drilling steps are necessary to complete the production of the ironhead.

If you have a cast iron and a forged iron of exactly the same shape and weight distribution design, the same loft, the same center of gravity position in the two heads, and the heads are built with the same shaft, same length, same grip and same swingweight/MOI, hitting the same ball, the shots will fly identical distances and 99-percent of all golfers will never know which was forged and which was cast.
Most of the remaining 1-percent want to believe that the forged iron would be softer in feel because the carbon steel of a typical forging is a softer metal, but scientific research has shown that the hardness difference in a metal alone is not enough to create a difference in impact feel. All of the other factors listed above are the reason for differences in the feel of shots hit with one club vs. another.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Actually there is quite a bit of difference. The forged models have a thinner topline which I like, and a smaller clubhead. The CCI forged irons also have less offset which makes it easier to work the ball when I need to. I don't care what people say. When you hit a forged iron it feels much softer than a cast iron. The metal is softer, and it does give better feel. I am using cast Taylormade TP irons currently, and I had a set of Mizuno MP33's. The MP33's were by far better irons with feel, ball control, and trajectory. I would still have them if they didn't get stolen from my car.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Put your earplugs in. You won't be able to tell the difference.

The difference you sense is the slightly different vibration produced by the heads, and the sound you hear from the clubface.

I've hit some 303 stainless clubs next to some forged clubs and they didn't feel much different to me with the earplugs in. The forged club felt a little softer with the earplugs out.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

With the all the respect in the world for you guys I disagree. It may just be a persnla preference. Cast clubs just seem different to me. i think it's just mental, but whatever is going to give that edge I will take advantage of. I just prefer forged clubs that's all. I have had both and am using cast clubs now in my Taylormade R7 TP's. they are nice, very little offset and can work the ball fine. But, since I got these I miss my forged irons. It's just my opinion there's no right opr wrong here...

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

LOL - I'm agreeing with you; there's a definite difference between cast and forged. One isn't 'better' it's just 'different'. Personally I like the forged difference.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that your preference was wrong; I was only asking the question in light of an article I'd just read.

I'd agree that if forged or looks or anything else makes you feel and therefore play better then yes go for it.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

hi
i have read in Tom Wishon book, "search for the prefect club." that the difference in feel between cast and forge is so slight the 99% of people could not tell the difference. what most people do it try a cavity back Cast and compare it with a blade forged club and you will feel a difference as there diffrent clubs. but have two that are both blade type or cavity type and that when it hard to tell the diffrence.
you also had the copper "berrllium" ping clubs that were said to have a softer feel but in tests it only had a diffrent sound and this helps to give the impression of a softer face.
cheers
bill

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Quite true, but is there an identical set of forged and casted irons out there? As long as manufacturers produce them differently, there always will be difference. And the most of the forged irons are designed to give softer feel, so players who are after the butter feel and workability will go for the forged set.

In my opinion, no two irons can be produced to have identical properties...

Now, I got a set of CCI forged, and I gotta make a complaint... I don't know whether it's my swing or the iron, but I tend to hurt my balls a lot more than my previous R7. It's pain to clean the grooves shot after shot... Otherwise, I love my CCI forged irons. Once you got the right swing, you can't complain.

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Hmmmm!! There is a great difference between a cast and forged component, castings have a high degree of porosity and this make the part brittle such that it will fracture easily when subjected to bending or impact forces, to overcome these restrictions cast parts are either used in components that are not subject to such forces, otherwise they will need to be made thicker.

When all steel is manufactured it is initially cast into a billet. In forged parts to improve the tensile strength the billet is compressed while passed between rollers in a hot or sometimes cold state, this realigns the crystalline formation of the material and forms a grain structure in the steel. This grain flow is similar to that found in wood where the material has a grain direction that greatly improves maluability in one direction and tensile strength in the other. The forging process heats the rolled steel then hammers it between an upper and lower mould that creates the basic shape of the part (Clubhead in this case), the part can then be machined finished into the final component. Due to the regular grain structure being maintained through the length of the clubface it is possible to create the part with a thinner wall section that is both strong and tensile. There will definitely be more feel in a forged clubhead with this thinner wall section.

Or to put it in a less technical way, it's the difference between washing your feet with your socks on or off

We have heard Mr Wishon's view, lets look at Mr Mizuno's

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

hi Brian
if you look at cast irons only one company cast there own heads and that is ping. years ago there were 5 company's making there own cast but could not keep up with running costs of a casting plant. Wilson was the last to close it USA plant. Ping were in to casting long before making golf clubs and are still one of the biggest supplier's of air craft parts in the USA so they can keep up with the costs of running a furness and casting plant. they are also use to working to spec of aircraft requirements that most other casting plants in China don't have or could do.

with all other makers they do not have there own casting plants but have other company's make there heads for them. this means out of house quality and also makes it harder to make and improve on club design.
if you take the old ping copper (beryllium) head irons there were said to feel better than forged but after many tests it was found that the pros that tested the clubs liked the sound and took the sound as feedback to there shot. the club was no softer for feel than the normal steel club but pros said the felt softer but it was all down to the sound rather than the feel.
Ton Wishon did do tests and came to the conclusion that if made with the same swing weight, shaft. etc then 99% of pros could not tell the difference as to what was cast and what was forged.

with you being an Engineer I'm sure you can see the benefits.
of doing it all in house with you people and your quality control.
with Mizuno you are talking about a top forge club maker but you can archive most of the same things through casting if you have really good quality control. and the use of only top quality steel.
Most ping iron can be bent and hammered and that it how most are set for lie and loft when taken out the ovens.
i don't know about other cast clubs but i do know about pings and what you can and can't do and you can do almost the same amount of bending and hammering as forged and a trip to any ping demo day will let you see then changing the loft of there clubs for free. if you have red code clubs and want black coded then they bang them in to a more upright loft.


what its comes down to is feel and feedback and most of that is down to personnel choices. its like what is best BMW or Merc, its down to choice and preference and not so much what is better.
cheers
bill

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Originally posted by BrianW View Post

Hmmmm!! There is a great difference between a cast and forged component....

No one would seek to disagree with you when it comes to engineering Brian, of course forged and cast clubs are made differently, but, turning to a subject that I know a bit more about , so is cheap and expensive wine but that doesn't mean that everyone can taste the difference. To quote from a NY Times Article.

"Fifteen years later, I am happy to report that the results of my little experiment have been confirmed by rigorous academic research involving more than 5,000 subjects, as published in a paper entitled “Do More Expensive Wines Taste Better?” from the American Association of Wine Economists published in the Journal of Wine Economics, Vol. 3, No. 1. Their conclusion: fancy people with lots of training can tell cheap wine from expensive wine, but regular people cannot. (A non-gated working paper version is available here.)"

So with regard to Mr Mizuno, in the words of Mandy Rice-Davies, "well he would say that wouldn't he?", he make expensive forged clubs, and, in any case, perhaps the in-house pro falls into that 1%?

Actually though the full AAWE article concludes that:

"The pleasure we get from consuming wine depends both on its intrinsic qualities such as taste and smell and external attributes such as price and presentation. One may argue that the former influences our subjective appreciation through a bottom-up process, where the sensory apparatus plays a key role, and that the latter works through a top-down process, where beliefs and expectations about quality are important determinants."

So it may well be that owning an expensive and to be fair pretty good looking set of forged Mizunos does make you feel and play better than before but I wouldn't put the improvement down to the forging unless you are in that 1%

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Robin,

My point is that it is possible to manufacture a thinner wall section when grainflow steel is forged and this does transfer more feel into the players hands. With heaver weighted clubs they are designed to be more forgiving and will play shots off centre better, this does help most golfers but IMO the lack of feedback does not help with improving your ball contact.

Forged clubs do not need to be expensive either, makers like Benross supply them at very reasonable prices. Regarding Mr Mizuno, IMO he says what he believes or why would he not just get his clubs manufactured in a Chinese foundry? Rather than a comparison between cheap and expensive wine I would make one between Audrey Hepburn and Ann Widdicombe, they can both be put to a similar function but they don't feel the same in your hand

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

hi Brian
what do you think of the ping Rapture! it had a titanium face that is stuck to a stainless steel surround and a tungsten's weigh on the toe and a rubber weigh on the back of the sweet spot that dampens vibs.
it must be one of the thinest faced irons out there and it cast.
the Rapture VII is a modified and updated club.
has to be the most advanced club head made so far and must take some time to put together so that will be why it has such a high price.
i agree that forged clubs can be cheep and good and for many years Jonny Letter made some wonderful low priced clubs that did just what it said on the tin.
cheers
bill

Re: Nike CCI Forged Irons (Anyone?)

Bill,

Titanium inserts are good as the material is very light and extremely strong, this allows a thin section to be used. It's also the reason it is so good in large driver heads in that it has the strength but due to it's light weight the oversize heads can still be swung fast. It is not a good material to manufacture the head for an iron though as it is difficult to machine and similar to magnesium it burns when heated in air. It is also very expensive.