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Rule 4-2b

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  • #1

    Rule 4-2b

    Ok here is one that is going to cause some debate, so lets here some opinions. I plan to write the USGA because I am a little curious about this one myself. Another GTO member gave this situation:

    "Into the wind, to reduce the spin rate, take a practice swing and fill the grooves up with dirt and grass. This will stop the grooves from doing their job and the ball will spin less!"

    The question is, does this violate rule 4-2b, which states:

    Foreign Material (Rule 4-2b)
    The Equipment Standards Committee uses this Rule when materials of a temporary nature have been applied to the face — such as saliva, grass juice, chalk, aerosol spray or other similar substances. Permanent attachments or coatings such as plasma spray, ‘balata’-type rubber or even paint are dealt with under the club face Rules in Appendix II (see Sections 1 and 5).
    The most important question to ask when ruling on a club which has had something temporarily applied to the face by a player is ‘why has it been put there?’ If a material or substance has been applied to the face in order to protect it (e.g., to increase wear resistance) or to clean it, then it would probably be permitted. However, if the purpose of the application is to influence the movement of the ball or assist the player in making a stroke, it would be prohibited. Any type of tape or similar material added to the face is not permitted for any purpose.


    Lets here your opinion.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Rule 4-2b

    My guess and opinion:
    Not electing to clean you face after a practice stoke or even a normal stroke is not a violation in any way. Knowing or not knowing what the affect of a dirty club face will be on the ball has no relavence. The "Grass juice" is only a violation when applied by hand or foot...rubbing or grinding it in.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Rule 4-2b

      And I'll take the opposite point of view

      I would think that by swinging in the rough to intentionally (<--- and that's the key) junk up the grooves would be a breach.

      To me, it's about the intent. It's like when you're trying to hit the ball, and whiff. Your playing partners can speculate as to whether it was practice or real, but you should add a stroke, as you swung with the intent of hitting the ball.

      It's similar, IMO, to when you hit your ball with your practice swing. No intent to hit it = no penalty (oddly enough).

      So, to me, yes - if you take practice cuts with the intent of crudding up your grooves to make less spin, you're in violation. The second paragraph of the decision: "The most important question to ask when ruling on a club which has had something temporarily applied to the face by a player is ‘why has it been put there?’ If a material or substance has been applied to the face in order to protect it (e.g., to increase wear resistance) or to clean it, then it would probably be permitted. However, if the purpose of the application is to influence the movement of the ball or assist the player in making a stroke, it would be prohibited." seems to support this view.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Rule 4-2b

        Ok fired off an email to the USGA, automated response says I will recieve an answer within 15 days...wow...they must get alot of questions. So the score is 2 for and 2 against, we need more opinions. I said it was a violation, and TeachingPro said no way when we started this on another thread. So it is me and lowpost against Greg and Teachingpro.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Rule 4-2b

          The most important question to ask when ruling on a club which has had something temporarily applied to the face by a player is ‘why has it been put there?’
          If the purpose of the application is to influence the movement of the ball or assist the player in making a stroke, it would be prohibited.

          It seems to me that this fits

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Rule 4-2b

            I'm still sticking with my opinion and Greg's view. (thanks for the support)

            I understand what you're saying about 'intention' and all the rest, but you're taking a practice swing that takes a divot and you don't clean the club face ... knowing that by not cleaning the club face will reduce spin isn't in breach of the rules.

            Just for interest sake, I checked with a friend of mine in South Africa who is an R&A rules official and does duty at official sanctioned events (I just asked the question BTW, I didn't mention it was my opinion). He is of the opinion that's it is not in breach of the rules ... he alikes it to going into a bunker and while you dig your feet in you get a feel of the sand. You're not 'testing' the sand while you dig your feet in, you are using information you get to your advantage and that is not in breach of the rules.

            He carried on for a l-o-n-g while about 'application', 'foreign object' ... blah, blah, blah ... but at the end of the day, if he was asked for a ruling under the gun he'd stay with his opinion that it is not illegal to take a practice swing and not clean the club face, even if you know that it will reduce spin or alter the playing characteristics.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Rule 4-2b

              Okay ... okay ... I tell you what.

              Without backing down on this 'debate', maybe what I should have said was: "If you don't clean your club face, the dirt and stuff that accumulates in the grooves will reduce spin. By reducing spin, you will reduce the effect of the wind."

              Make of it what you will, intentional or not, having 'dirty' grooves still helps to reduce the effect of the wind.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Rule 4-2b

                If you knowingly alter your club during a round, you are cheating, no ifs ands or buts.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Rule 4-2b

                  Originally posted by GoNavy
                  Ok here is one that is going to cause some debate, so lets here some opinions. I plan to write the USGA because I am a little curious about this one myself. Another GTO member gave this situation:

                  "Into the wind, to reduce the spin rate, take a practice swing and fill the grooves up with dirt and grass. This will stop the grooves from doing their job and the ball will spin less!"

                  The question is, does this violate rule 4-2b, which states:

                  Foreign Material (Rule 4-2b)
                  The Equipment Standards Committee uses this Rule when materials of a temporary nature have been applied to the face — such as saliva, grass juice, chalk, aerosol spray or other similar substances. Permanent attachments or coatings such as plasma spray, ‘balata’-type rubber or even paint are dealt with under the club face Rules in Appendix II (see Sections 1 and 5).
                  The most important question to ask when ruling on a club which has had something temporarily applied to the face by a player is ‘why has it been put there?’ If a material or substance has been applied to the face in order to protect it (e.g., to increase wear resistance) or to clean it, then it would probably be permitted. However, if the purpose of the application is to influence the movement of the ball or assist the player in making a stroke, it would be prohibited. Any type of tape or similar material added to the face is not permitted for any purpose.


                  Lets here your opinion.
                  Did the USGA ever get back to you?

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Rule 4-2b

                    Oh, sorry yes they did, here what he said:

                    "Dear Mr. Smith,

                    In reply to your email, if the player's intent for filling the grooves
                    with dirt and grass with a practice swing is to influence the movement
                    of the ball, the player would be in breach of Rule 4-2b. Please note
                    that the penalty for a breach of Rule 4-2b is disqualification.

                    Thank you for your interest in the Rules of Golf. The Rule mentioned
                    above along with Frequently Asked Questions on the Rules of Golf can be
                    found on the USGA's website at http://www.usga.org/rules.

                    This response is for your personal information and may not be posted or
                    disclosed by email or internet posting.

                    Sincerely,

                    Bernie Loehr
                    Rules of Golf Associate
                    USGA"

                    LOL..hope they don't come after me for posting this, guess I'am just a rule breaker.

                    Comment

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