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**GreeBoman** · 03-26-2007, 05:18 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

I get this stuff from Decision 27-2/1 as I said in my first post.

Take this example:
You hit a drive 300 yrds and its towards a lateral water hazard but you cannot be sure if it went into it as you didnt see the finish.
You hit a provisional as you dont want to walk back but you fluff it and it takes you 3 strokes to get near the point of your first drive.

Now you cant find the first one so what happens?
Well either you know the ball is in the hazard and the provisional is the ball in play or you have lost the first one and the provisional is the ball in play, right?
Wrong.

May a player announce that a second ball he is going to play is both (a) a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds and (b) the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a water hazard?

- No.

You cant hit a provisional for a ball in a water hazard.

**GreeBoman** · 03-26-2007, 05:25 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by aaa

But read it again

Why do I need to read it again exactly?
You are the one who did not understand the question.
Your highlighting of the question shows this
" If you play a provisional then if the ball is lost OR in the hazard the provisional is the ball in play"
Bottom line you cant hit a provisional if this happens or this happens.
If the ball is lost you do one thing, if its in a water hazard you do another.

**aaa** · 03-26-2007, 05:38 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by GreeBoman

If the ball is lost you do one thing, if its in a water hazard you do another.

That is correct but you actually posted

If you play a provisional then if the ball is lost OR in the hazard the provisonal is the ball in play.

Which means
If the ball is lost, the provisional is in play
or if the ball is in the hazard, the provisional is in play

Which in English is not the same thing.

**GreeBoman** · 03-26-2007, 06:36 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

ok so remove the extra word "then".

The issue is that if you hit a provisional you have decided that you may not find the ball and that you are happy its not in the hazard, correct?

By my reading of the rule, you cannot hit a provisional in case the ball is in the hazard.

If you hit a provisional and then a spectator says "your first is in the hazard" then your provisional is not the ball in play, you are left to decide if you want to replay, or drop as discussed before.

However, if you get to where you think your ball is and its not there then the provisional is the ball in play.

**aaa** · 03-26-2007, 07:11 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by GreeBoman

However, if you get to where you think your ball is and its not there then the provisional is the ball in play.

All ok. With the proviso in the case above. If when you get there it is pretty certain that the ball can only be in the WH then the provisional is abandoned and R26 kicks in. Any strokes with the provisional are disregarded.

27-2b)
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be.
If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in a water hazard,the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

**GreeBoman** · 03-27-2007, 09:18 AM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by aaa

All ok. With the proviso in the case above. If when you get there it is pretty certain that the ball can only be in the WH then the provisional is abandoned and R26 kicks in.

Agreed, my only issue would be that unless its the scenario where you had no idea there was a water hazard there until you arrive, you "decided" on the tee that it was not in a water Hazard but that it may be lost.

So standing on the tee you have to make a decision:
1- If you think it may be lost then hit a provo.
2- If you are pretty sure its in a water hazard then decide on how you want to continue under R26.

Until you have decided if you are in situation 1 or 2 then you shouldnt hit a provo as depending on how you hit it, it could easily influence your decision on whether or not you believe you are in a water hazard.

In fact in a match your opposition could look for and find your ball in the WH and force you to exercise R26, right?

**aaa** · 03-27-2007, 10:45 AM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by GreeBoman

So standing on the tee you have to make a decision:
1- If you think it may be lost then hit a provo.
2- If you are pretty sure its in a water hazard then decide on how you want to continue under R26.

Exactly

Until you have decided if you are in situation 1 or 2 then you shouldnt hit a provo as depending on how you hit it, it could easily influence your decision on whether or not you believe you are in a water hazard.

As golf is a game of honour, I would hope that the player would make a judgement based on the facts. eg is there clear short grass all round, is there anywhere else it may be.

In fact in a match your opposition could look for and find your ball in the WH and force you to exercise R26, right?

In principle yes. But they couldn't force you. They have to act under 2-5.
In stroke play your FCs or marker could report him to the committee.

**GreeBoman** · 03-27-2007, 10:55 AM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by aaa

But they couldn't force you. They have to act under 2-5.
In stroke play your FCs or marker could report him to the committee.

But if they find your ball then you have to use that ball.
You cant just dismiss the fact that your ball has been found, unless you have already made a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

Its the same scenario as if you hit a provisional on a par3 and it stops 1 inch from the cup, if you declared it a provisional on the tee then your opponent can go and look for the ball and if they find it (within 5 mins and before you make a stroke with the other ball) then thats the ball in play and the provisional is ignored.

If you run up and play your shot to prevent them searching then can still look for it as you played out of turn?

**aaa** · 03-27-2007, 11:51 AM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

I agree. I was just commenting on your use of the word force. If your opponent won't abide by the rule you can't use physical or any other 'force'. All you can do is register a dispute under 2-5.

**GreeBoman** · 03-27-2007, 12:17 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by aaa

I agree. I was just commenting on your use of the word force. If your opponent won't abide by the rule you can't use physical or any other 'force'. All you can do is register a dispute under 2-5.

Fair enough, I meant "force" as in that its not up to them, according to the rules they have to banadon the provo ball.
If someone refuses to play by the rules in a match I dont move until an official comes over and makes a ruling.

**GreeBoman** · 04-25-2007, 03:45 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Sorry to drag all this up again but going back to my first post about replaying a shot from the tee if you knock it into a water hazard.

I am assuming that the reason rule 26-1 lets you replay the shot is because the ball is unplayable.
however rule 28 clearly states that
"The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard."

Dont these two rules contradict one another?
Also, I always thought that you cannot just declare a ball lost or abandon it (unless 5 mins have passed or you have brought another ball into play).
Your competitors/partners have the right to look for the ball and find it (if you played a provo)

Finally, if in matchplay I hit a poor first shot, then hit a provo to 2 inches and run up and putt it in, cant my oponent look for my first ball and get me to play it?
I have played out of turn by holing out the provo so he can make me take it back and thus look for the first one for 5 mins...

**aaa** · 04-25-2007, 07:21 PM

Re: Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

Originally posted by GreeBoman View Post

I am assuming that the reason rule 26-1 lets you replay the shot is because the ball is unplayable.
however rule 28 clearly states that
"The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard."
Dont these two rules contradict one another?

They are two separate rules. 26 has nothing to do with 'unplayable'. 26-1a (Stroke & Distance) is simply one of the options available to the player.
S & D is available in Rules 26, 27 & 28.

Also, I always thought that you cannot just declare a ball lost or abandon it (unless 5 mins have passed or you have brought another ball into play).
Your competitors/partners have the right to look for the ball and find it (if you played a provo)

Correct

Finally, if in matchplay I hit a poor first shot, then hit a provo to 2 inches and run up and putt it in, cant my oponent look for my first ball and get me to play it?
I have played out of turn by holing out the provo so he can make me take it back and thus look for the first one for 5 mins...

Again, correct. Providing his ball was further from the hole when you holed out.

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Two interesting rules probably broken a lot

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