Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Jo,

The Callaway studios are great. I posted the link to that for another member on another thread, who wanted fitting post-purchase of Callaway pre-owned. I don't know if they would do that, and I don't know if the locations were convenient for him. I don't think you can do better.

You seem to have good power. Do you know what your swing speed is?

Regarding the nuances of posture, grips and such, I don't think those are that rigidly important, and each person makes their modifications to suit, as I suggested earlier. The important aspects are the unique early wrist break, shoulder turn to generate backswing, lateral hip and leg action to initiate the downswing, and shoulder generated downswing with passive arms. There's not much more of importance which would affect the main concept.

I guess I always had hunched shoulders and low hands, forward bend of the upper body from the hips, the inside of the elbows pointing outwards. I do not keep my back ramrod straight with back of head in line, and butt sticking out like the one planers. I suppose those later posture elements are essential for a core generated swing.

If you are already seeing solid the ball striking, that is the incentive to continue to learn this method. Once you get used to it, it simplifies the swing and is low maintenance, which was my aim.

Ted

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hey jackpotjo i was in your shoes last year reading every tip i could get and playing everyday but i got worse than when i started. Next time you play just think of making a good swing and the shot you wanna play and commit to it. If you think of mechanics while your playing you'll never play to your potential, leave the mechanis for the range.

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Jo,

I have a few thoughts which I'd like to get off my mind while I remember them, otherwise I'd forget. Old age you know

Don't get too wrapped up about the posture and such. The reason I took to this method is I found it was a simple method, right from the beginning. I really did not remotely think about changing my posture or other details. I may have been fortunate, in that there were certain things I had previously been working on and those fitted in well with this method.

The first time I tried it, I just settled up to the ball and thought only about making that weird wrist break. I had already been working on getting my shoulder turn more active, by envisioning them lining up with my right foot, so that part was a natural motion which conveniently matched with the shoulder activated backswing concept of 4MM. Once I made that shoulder turn, the weight was shifted as a result and I was wound up against my right instep. That build-up of torque was needing to be released, which felt right to do by the lateral shifting of the lower body. This lateral motion freed up the unwinding of the upper body and shoulders, and the arms through the downswing and followthrough.

I just let it go, and it seemed the quirky early wrist break pre-ordains all the necessary good things to happen.

Here's the way I see it.

The backward wristbreak keeps the arms connected together (the insides of the elbow point forward and the elbows remain very close together throughout the swing, somewhat Hoganesque fashion. When you turn your shoulders for the backswing, the arms will want to remain in front of and connected to the turning chest. The ideal plane, not too flat and not too steep is attained, without thinking about it. You reach the top with fully cocked wrists, without having to think about it. The full shoulder turn shifts the weight and loads the torque. The stored power is wanting to be released, which screams to be done by the lateral motion of the hips. This automatically shifts the weight forward, and sets off the sequence of unwinding and providing support for the upper body and arm swing from the ground up. The upper body and arm lag, and the lag provided by maintaining the wrist cock until late in the downswing provides acceleration, and promotes the hands leading the clubhead, and the flat left wrist, bent right wrist impact position.

I've worked hard in the past on trying to achieve each of the desirable separate positions and motions, and have been frustrated when I could not put them into play. For me, this really simplifies things. I make a couple of full waggles by taking the club to hands high with the backward wrist break, while settling into the stance and addressing the ball, the rest just flows.

Ted

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Nick 1313
Thank you for your support. Good to hear from you.
I do try to keep the mechanics on the range but my game is so bad that I start struggling to find the problem.
This is an ongoing nightmare for me.
I have developed so many swing thoughts over the years that it is darn near impossible to figure which "crutial" part of my swing has gone bad
I am hoping 4MM will help clear my mind of years of clutter.
So far so good !! . I actually believe this concept is going to work for me.

Take care
Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Nick 1313
Thank you for your support. Good to hear from you.
I do try to keep the mechanics on the range but my game is so bad that I start struggling to find the problem.
This is an ongoing nightmare for me.
I have developed so many swing thoughts over the years that it is darn near impossible to figure which "crucial" part of my swing has gone bad
I am hoping 4MM will help clear my mind of years of clutter.
So far so good !! . I actually believe this concept is going to work for me.

Take care
Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Ted,
Thanks again for your continued support.
I have no idea what my swing speed is. Wish I did but I guess I will find out at the swing analysis which I will look into tomorrow,

I love the way you summed up the 4MM. That is an awesome way to put it all together. You do seem to have this concept down to a science
I hope I catch on to this as well as you have.
I did order the book through Chapters Indigo books. I hope it comes in quickly. I am anxious to read on. Although it looks like my driving range days are going to on hold for a little while. The last couple of days have be gorgeous here but there is a system coming over the mountains tonight. Our temps are dropping to 2 degrees with rain turning to snow Not going to warm until the end of the week. But as you say I can work on this indoors and I will for sure.

Ted, how does this swing work with trouble and specialty shots ??
I was thinking about bunkers...particularly green-side bunker...Suppose I short pin myself and have to splash out of a decent lie..normally open my wedge and stance a well to compensate..now if I have the face laid open how do I manage to manipulate the early backwards wrist-break and splash through the shot ?? I am really not able to wrap my head around this move at all.

But you know the very first time I tried the early wrist-break I took caution do it properly and everything as you just described fell into place..I could feel every bit of it...I knew then I was hooked..
It will take time before the 4MM doesn't look like such a deliberate move on my part but more of an unconscious action. Looking forward for it all to feel a little more automatic. (patience Jo patience) Have to learn to walk before I can run.

Thanks again Ted. Take care !!
Regards
Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Jo,

Regarding your taking well to the method, that's the main thing. There is no use going for a change in swing method, unless you see improved results. If you start to see more solid strikes right from the start, even though you are not thoroughly comfortable with it yet, you can see the potential. If the method also brings along the benefit of a simple no thinking swing, all the better.

There are many ways of swing the club. The recent Masters tournament showed a variety of them, and the ball striking display was tremendous. I think we get caught up with wanting to strip down the swings and emulate them. I did that and there were periods when I was completely confused, and the swing went totally out of whack. There was too much thinking I had to do that, and then this, and watch for that.

About the bunker shot, I have always been a good bunker player. The technique is different, because the Dante method promotes a square or slightly closed face position on the takeaway because of the flat or bowed left wrist caused by the early break. Instead of the Dante takeaway, I take the club back along my open body line with the shoulders. At the same time, the arms pick the club up quite steeply, and the wrists cock so the left wrist cups, which opens the face. When you come down steeply and forward through the sand, you don't release the hands over, so the face remains open. The bounce of the club allows the club to slide under the ball.

Regarding chip shots, I gather you are inconsistent with those. There was a discussion by other 4MM players in the other 4MM threads about chipping with this method. I think you should read it. There are those that really like it and others can't get there heads around it, so they stay with the traditional method. For you, perhaps it will cure whatever your tendencies are, which create the inconsistencies. I would think it has some benefits, like creating a solid impact position and reducing flipping. Practice, and compare it with the conventional methods. If necessary, you may come up with a variation, as others have.

After I sent the last post, I thought of one other good thing the 4MM method does for me. I had struggled with my left wrist cupping, when I got to the top of the backswing with my previous swings. That was the natural position it got into, and it was a weak open position. If I tried to manipulate the wrist to flat (i.e. square), it was difficult and it felt odd. It also created an unnecessary and detrimental hitch in the flow of the swing. With 4MM, the wrist got to the top flat and I did not have to think about it.

Keep well, and wish you good progress,

Ted

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hello Ted,
Thank you for your quick reply and support.
It is great advice you give . I am a terrible bunker player as is so I am grateful for the tips..Was having trouble before so couldn't figure how this swing change would work but I believe your method is the best way.
Yes my chipping is misery as well so as the year rolls on I will have to see how that part goes..Sad thing is my Driving range has zero short game practice facilities. It does have a small putting green but that's it. I would love to be able to practice trouble shots. No place in the city actually has this kind of practice spot

I just got back from the range and found today that every iron I hit seem to go the same distance Didn't like that much Things didn't feel quite right today. I think I might be rushing this swing now. The break today did not feel right...I don't like the forward press so I don't do it. Now I am wondering just when to do the break...right off the bat?? maybe when hands get past right foot ?? I was trying different spots today and got myself quite confused. So now I am not sure at all as to when to start the wrist-break..how early ?? I will try in a few days again after the rain and snow system that is coming in passes. By the sound of the weather forecast the next few days are going to be miserable. Can always hope it misses us but not likely.

Well I will go for now and think about this some more...it just has to work

Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Jo,

The early wrist break is before the club is moved back, then the shoulders take the arms and club to the top of the backswing. That's the beauty, the wrist break is made and it is retained until it releases well down towards impact.

I think a good way to start the backswing is as I said in my earlier post:
"I make a couple of full waggles by taking the club to hands high with the backward wrist break, while settling into the stance and addressing the ball, the rest just flows.". To elaborate further, once the hands get back in front of me and the clubhead is hovered behind the ball after the second waggle, as a "rebound" reaction, I make the early wrist break and backswing. This gives me two relaxed rehearsals of the early break and also I am not starting from a dead still position. I am flowing from the rehearsals to the actual swing.

Here is a video which shows a different waggle, but gives an idea of what I'm saying. Particularly, look around 1:10.



Ted

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hey Ted,
Thanks for the video...it does really show how the waggle can be a big benefit. I do waggle but not to that extent. My waggle is so short. It is much like a short snapping back of the wrist. not much arm movement. The video shows what a waggle is ..Certainly a lot more movement than what I put into it.

I really felt the wrist break and all that follows it the other day but today was just not a good day with it but I am still determined to make this work.

My book was shipped from Chapters Books today...looking forward to it's arrival.

Thank you Ted for all you do to support me with this.

Regards
Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hello All
I was wondering how many people using the 4MM concept keep your arms at address position with the inside elbow indents facing forward rather than the traditional elbows pointing to sides...
I am finding this a little difficult .
Thnx
Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

My advice? Don't take the elbow dents pointing out to the extreme. Hogan advocated it, and he also swore by keeping the elbows close throughout the swing. It's not quite what he did though. But this is probably in comparison to those with flying elbows. Close, but not too close.

Comfortably straight is enough. Relaxed, but ready.

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Thanks Niel for your support..
I am actually trying to keep the inside of both elbows facing forward. I have always had them pointing out to the sides. Trying to keep them forward is proving a bit of a challenge

Jo

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

If I'm doing it as you seem to be, to have your elbows pointing out (indents facing each other) and still be able to hold the club correctly, your arms would have to be all but locked.

Relax them off a bit and you should naturally see the elbow dents turn outward a bit. But you can go to the other extreme and have your elbows locked with the dents facing out (see Tim Clarke for a pro that does it to that extreme). Somewhee in between is fine. Like I say, relax! It's a stressless game and tension doesn't play much of a part in it!

Re: Canadian Wanna be Golfer

Hi Jo,

I was curious, so I did a test. I don't know if individuals have different natural hanging characteristics of the arms. I seem to recall that men and women have different arm and hand hangs, but I don't know. Men's are more ape like?

When I stand comfortably relaxed, slightly bent over, with my arms loosely hanging down from the shoulders, I see that my palms face inwards and slightly backwards (about 45 degrees from the toe line.) The inside of the elbows seem to be about 22 degrees open to the front.

When I moved my hands to the front rolled the hands from the inward/backward positions to be palm to palm, I actually found that the inside of the elbow and the whole arm rotated even more open to the front. I could force the arms to rotate, so the elbow insides pointed inwards, but that was "forcing" them from their natural inclination to be somewhat open to the front.

Also out of curiousity, I tried to make a full early wrist break as per 4MM, with the insides of the elbows pointing to each other, and I found it very difficult to do. I actually felt a strain and pain in the forearms and the elbow joint.

I do remember I used to have some concerns about which was the right way to position the elbows (and I used to worry about all kinds of things like this), and I used to "force" my left elbow particularly to rotate over top face inside. But somewhere in my evolution to the present swing, and that was well before I changed to the 4MM swing, I got to the point, where I likely stayed with the natural inclination of the elbows, and never thought about it, until you just mentioned it. I also recall that I used to have all kinds of "tennis elbow", forearm and hand aches and pains in the past, which I have not had for ages.

Oh, I just tried to force the inside of the left forearm to rotate inward, while clasping my hands palm to palm together, and noticed that right elbow and arm did not want to budge from its natural forward (mainly) facing inclination. For whatever that means.

There is a you tube video of Hogan's swing, which shows the elbow orientation, and another by one of his followers which explains the action, which may be of interest, although Hogan concepts do not necessarily have any direct co-relation with 4MM concepts. I'm extremely busy, so I'll have to post it some other time.

I would be interested in other people's results of the above "tests".

Ted