Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

Hi Trevor,

At address the shoulders set a plane as does the clubshaft. Can you explain your thinking a little more regarding the elbow plane please?

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

There are some who say the downswing should follow the same path as the backswing (hence the training aid - the Explanar): presumably the shoulder plane. Others say the downswing should be shallower than the backswing, which I take to be the elbow plane (line between ball and right elbow at address). Who's right, or am I totally confused in this interpretation?

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

Good question.

There is no right or wrong however. Look at different theories and they give different answers. Leadbetter says we should have backswing slightly steeper, downswing shallows out onto origional shaft line. Explanar is a shoulder line plane - but there are problems with this (when the shaft is parallel to the ground pre and post impact the clubhaed will appear outside the hands, no top professional has ever swung the club this way through impact). Natural golf, Haney, stack and tilt guys etc all have other theories.

My own theory - what is the NATURAL lie angle of the club? draw a line up from the heel at this angle (a good software like will allow you to determine the angle). Try to keep the club parallel to this throughout swing and get the clubhead and handle onto the line as early as possible in the downswing driving down into the ball from there.

I suppose this would agree more with your elbow plane - i would tend to go with this one more, although there are many more factors to take into consideration such as height, build, club fit, personal goals (accuracy or distance). Although i can give you more info on plane, most of it is purely poor theoretical work and the benefits of 'perfect plane' are debateable

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

Thanks for that helpful advice. Any ideas on the best thoughts to have at transition/start of downswing to get on to that lower plane consistently? So many pros have said that if you start with the hips/knees/lower body the club will fall on to the correct plane, but that has not been my experience - I still end up going over the top on an outside-in plane unless I work hard at avoiding it, and I don't get it right often enough. Right elbow to side helps sometimes but it doesn't feel smooth enough for it to be the best way. Any suggestions?

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

Trevor great question can't answer about the explanar...

But the elbow plane is the most difficult to transition to...

Take you're back swing looking in a mirror behind you...

Let the shaft start dropping you'll see it bisecting thru your shoulder...

This is typically considered a steep transiition...

Now take you're back swing this time don't move any thing ...

Lower the right elbow toward you're side shaft takes a different route...

Here's a link explaining it okay...

http://jimmclean.com/tabid/839/default.aspx

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

To keep on plane I like the idea of keeping the shaft pointing down an extended target line going back and coming down. The attached video shows the concept:

http://www.dreamswing.eu/dreamswing-blog/viewpost/23

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

Trevor, the first thing you have to realise is that pretty much everyones downswing is on a very good plane, but it is all RELATIVE.

a person who is over the top will have their clubshaft looking very steep when viewed on a video from down the line by traditional standards. However, if you aimed your body to the right enough, you will find that the clubshaft plane looks better and better. you see club plane relates almost directly to swing path through impact (i say almost as there are a few rare cases where is doesnt).

• a person who swings 10 degrees in to out will have a very good swing plane when they aim 10 degrees left
• a person who swings 10 degrees out to in will have a very good swing plane when they aim their body 10 degrees to the right

So there are essentially three ways you can improve your swing plane. i would suggest a mixture of all three methods

1. you could work on mechanics such as elbow closer to side or transition etc. This is the current method used by pros although only has a small success rate, and often messes people up for several reasons. Some people have success and make their swing look good on video, but they still cant manage to hit the ball.
2. my recommendation would be to try to get your divot to aim straighter at the target (or even a little right for yourself). This would automatically get your body working better and get the clubshaft on plane
3. do number 2 from an orthodox alignment at first, but if you find it hard, just aim your body further and further right until your divot starts to point right. Video it from down the line to the target and you will be surprised how much better the plane looks. If you use this method you may need more of a closed clubface too so a stronger grip would be good. There have been several good players who have used this method to a certain extent

Hope this helps. Any quastions and ask away

Re: elbow or shoulder plane?

hi
surely if you change your weight more onto the left foot as you swing into the ball you have to also change the plane of the swing.
i think Moe was about the only golfer that had almost the same back swing as he had the through swing but even he had some weight shift and that changed his downswing a little.
i think hogan had it right with his glass and the player head through it! and the plane chaged when he shifted his weight and droped his elbow to his side.
in the backswing the right elbow started away from the right hip but in the down swing the elbow and hip almost touch.
this has to change the plane of the swing.
if you have a hip slide to the left like i do then that plane changes even more. if you swing in a barrel with more rotation you still drip the elbow to the turning right hip. that chages the plane.
i don't see how you can have the same back swing as downswing unless you dont turn your hips and have no weight shift?
cheers
bill