Grooving tool

[LowPost42]

Re: Grooving tool

I don't think that regrooving is psycho-somatic, as pros change wedges often to keep the deepest grooves (and most spin) readily available.

I would suggest that Pros change their wedges often as: 1) they don't pay for them and: 2) the club manufacturers want them and us to believe it helps with ball spin, it also helps to sell more clubs.

All you need for spin is a slightly roughened surface on the clubface, other than that its the contact and loft that gets the ball spinning.

I should have stated my position, I guess. I'm with you that you could play completely grooveless irons to no detriment - provided you didn't hit out of long grass or off wet grass. You are correct that the grooves themselves do not generate playable spin, per se, but rather channel dirt, debris, grass and wet off the face to allow more contact and hence more spin.

But in dry, clean conditions, there's no playable difference between grooved and grooveless.

[cct]

Re: Grooving tool

I have to disagree that grooves do not provide spin.

Bill, the R&A have banned square grooves, the grooves you describe are called V and U grooves.

Pros don't change their wedges as often as u think! Vijay still plays Cleveland 900's that Cleveland don't sell anymore. I know a family friend who is a top 50 tour pro on the european tour who regrooves his wedges regularly, as do all pros!

Car tyres and golf grooves can't be compared as they serve different purposes.

When a clubface hits the ball it stikes on a downward blow the ball then runs up the clubface and the grooves cut down on the ball putting backspin on the ball.

Why do pros clean their grooves after every shot? Because if they don't have clean grooves they can't get as much spin as grooves increase the spin rate!

Wedge manufacturers state their wedge gives out a value of rpm which is say more than a rival! What gives these different rpm values...Different style of grooves! Just look at snake eyes adverts to see what they state!

[bill reed]

Re: Grooving tool

hi cct
go to the R&A web site and look up the rules and near the end (page 151/152) you will see how they mesure the three types of groved and the "V" "U" and the square type.
what they have changed is the edge of the grove and from where the edge is first measured, there is no longer the square edge and the older clubs are not as yet banned. i think they said it started in 2008, so far there is not a list of banned irons like the have with there drivers. and the ban was to start with the pro game in 2008 but there is talk of the club game continuing using the clubs till 2010.
the rule book the R&A are using is 2004 to 2007 and the same rules apply to the groves as in 2003 so no ban as yet?????
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Grooving tool

I have to disagree that grooves do not provide spin.

Of course you are at liberty to disagree

Pros don't change their wedges as often as u think! Vijay still plays Cleveland 900's that Cleveland don't sell anymore. I know a family friend who is a top 50 tour pro on the european tour who regrooves his wedges regularly, as do all pros!

Maybe he does not know any better? He may be a top tour pro but that does not change the laws of physics and ballistics.

Car tyres and golf grooves can't be compared as they serve different purposes.

Do they, I think not! The grooves on car tyres and golf clubs allow moisture drain away from the contact area so that the surface does not create an aquaplane effect that reduces grip. This would allow the ball to slide over the surface thus reducing spin.

When a clubface hits the ball it stikes on a downward blow the ball then runs up the clubface and the grooves cut down on the ball putting backspin on the ball.

Yes, a clubface can hit a ball with a downward blow but on the other hand it can contact it level or on an upward path, it depends on the club being used and whether the ball is on the ground or teed up. The important factor is that the ball is struck as near centre as possible on the face so that optimum forces are applied to it.

When the ball is struck by the clubface it is deformed onto the face due to the collision, the ball then sticks to the surface of the face for a fraction of a millisecond, for this to happen the ball cares not whether there is a groove underneath it, a slightly abraded surface is quite adequate for this to happen. The loft on the face will create an oblique blow that will cause the ball to start sliding upwards, it will loose its adhesion and start to roll, this is what causes the spin. The more the loft the more oblique the blow and the faster the ball will roll on the face and the higher the angle the ball will leave the club.

Why do pros clean their grooves after every shot? Because if they don't have clean grooves they can't get as much spin as grooves increase the spin rate!

Well, if it makes them feel better then why not! It is a good idea to remove anything that would cause the ball to loose adhesion , dirt, grass, water etc, as a matter of fact grooves are a major factor in retaining these undesirable materials on the clubface.

Wedge manufacturers state their wedge gives out a value of rpm which is say more than a rival! What gives these different rpm values...Different style of grooves! Just look at snake eyes adverts to see what they state!

Hmmm! Well, I guess they will suggest their wedges have some USP. The spin values are a factor of loft, how the ball is struck, the ball and the surface condition. It is quite possible to suggest within a tolerance what spin rates a club will produce under optimum conditions.

EDIT:
As an after thought: The reason some of the regulatory bodies are concerned about the types of grooving used on clubs is because of the way they assist players to get the ball out of deep rough while still achieving reasonable spin rates. The reason they can do this goes back to my statement that grooves assist in channeling away moisture and grass juice from the clubface, this in their opinion is making the game too easy for the pros.

[bill reed]

Re: Grooving tool

hi
just like to add to what brian said, the new milled faced wedges give more spin than the same club with the same groves so the milled face does more than the groves to spin the ball, i know lowpost had used this type of wedge as he recomended it to me and it did spin the ball more but also marked the ball a lot more too. i swaped them for some ping mb wedges that dont ware out my balls. the smt durometer wedges did put a lot of backspin on the ball if you used a high spin ball that had a soft outer core.
i dont know if lowpost still uses them but they were great for showing off with as the ball would bounce and then spin back about 15/20 feet. but you could not control the backspin or at least i could not. if you want backspin go for the milled face that has hundreds of mini groves on the face and then the real groves cut into that.
i did belive like you cct so i know where your comming from, up till about 6 months ago i though grove gave spin till i tried an old wedge i had that has punch marks and no groves and it been in my garage for over 25 years, i found i could spin the ball to a stop with no effort. i found it hard to belive at first and it was brian who started to talk about groves and spin and i now think the same as him in that groves dont make the ball spin anymore thant they would of a club with little or no groves. i do belive they do make a diffrence in the rough and in bunkers and if it wet.
back in the 90's ping eye2's were banned but not because the groves but that the groves were mesured from the inside of the grove and not the start of the face of the grove, this let ping put two more groves on there 5 iron but that in effect put more face on the club also and that why the club was banned from pro play and two years later from club play.
try and find an old wedge that well past it sell by date and try it yourself, the pros have been putting spin on balls for over 30 years but it only the last few years thet they could do it from heavy rough.
i think i am a bit like you cct in that i have to be shown someting is like how it is before i belive it.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Grooving tool

hi
if you go to the ping site and look up knowledge base there is a question:-
are square groves legal under the current usga rules of golf.

answer:- YES the square groves are legal for tournament under the usga rules of golf.
then it goes on to tell you about how the ping eye2 were outwith the rules due to the facing of the groves and not the groves themself.
bill

[cct]

Re: Grooving tool

Regrooving does make a difference.

I got my wedges regrooved because I noticed that I wasn't getting the same spin as my new wedge and my grooves were looking a little tired. So got them regrooved a couple of weeks ago and I notice a difference.

If you believe grooves don't add to spin then don't get your wedges regrooved however I will continue to get my wedges and irons regrooved to give myself the best opportunity of shooting a good score. U will still get spin with tired worn grooves however u won't get as much!

Why do drivers have a smooth face...Yes ok, I know that your gonna say that because you hit your driver off a tee it's not getting grass and water out the way...but it does have small grooves at either side of the sweet spot...this helps a shot coming off the toe or heel with more backspin which counteracts side spin which reduces how wayward the shot is.

I agree in part that golfers blame not getting spin to equipment instead of correctly blaming their technique but grooves do increase spin rate

[BrianW]

Re: Grooving tool

Regrooving does make a difference.

I got my wedges regrooved because I noticed that I wasn't getting the same spin as my new wedge and my grooves were looking a little tired. So got them regrooved a couple of weeks ago and I notice a difference.

If you believe grooves don't add to spin then don't get your wedges regrooved however I will continue to get my wedges and irons regrooved to give myself the best opportunity of shooting a good score. U will still get spin with tired worn grooves however u won't get as much!

Why do drivers have a smooth face...Yes ok, I know that your gonna say that because you hit your driver off a tee it's not getting grass and water out the way...but it does have small grooves at either side of the sweet spot...this helps a shot coming off the toe or heel with more backspin which counteracts side spin which reduces how wayward the shot is.

I agree in part that golfers blame not getting spin to equipment instead of correctly blaming their technique but grooves do increase spin rate

As I said you are quite entitled to your opinion. I base my opinion on scientific theory and tests. If you get confidence from re-grooving then all power to your elbow!

Now, the driver: The driver has a small amount of loft so the blow is less oblique, this creates less spin and more of a rebound effect as the ball compressed then is forced off the face as the ball recovers its form. The grooves on the driver are normally very shallow and away from the sweet spot, they are there solely as a decorative feature, a perfectly struck blow would not touch them. balls coming off the toe or heal will be affected by "Gearing" which will generate a degree of side spin. Interestingly the only way you would create more backspin with your driver would be to add loft, this would of course reduce distance.

Don't get me wrong, I have grooves on my irons and they are very important when hitting out of rough, we all know what happens to a ball that is struck with a large amount of grass between the clubface and ball.