One size fits all

[ubizmo]

This is possibly a silly question; I'm not sure. I've read that shaft length plays much less of a role in distance than loft, because club head speed doesn't change that much with shaft length.

It's also true that many amateur golfers have a "favorite" club that they hit especially well. This is probably because the different shaft lengths call for adjustments in posture, and one particular length is ideal for a posture that a particular golfer is most comfortable with. So the golfer feels more comfortable swinging that club.

So, the obvious question is: Why not make a set of clubs that have shafts that are all the same length, the "comfortable" length? With these clubs, setup and posture would always be exactly the same, so the swing would be even more grooved. There might be some loss in distance with the less lofted clubs (maybe) and some gain in distance with the more lofted clubs, if a mid-length shaft were selected. But there could be a huge gain in consistency, I would think, and that would be worth a lot.

Has anyone every heard of anyone doing this? What is the argument against it?

[LowPost42]

Re: One size fits all

Ubizmo, head on over to 1irongolf.com

They have all their clubs playing the same length and lie. David Lake has spent immeasurable hours perfecting the shaft tipping to get all clubs to play to the same flex - but the theory is that you have one swing for 10 clubs (Irons and Wedges). I think they've got a line of woods now, so with 1iron clubs, you'd have 2 swings (woods and irons).

There's a lot of people out there who love their 1Iron clubs.

[javichanche]

Re: One size fits all

That wouldn't be real golf. Golf is the most interesting sport because of its difficulty. Golf is about imagination and that's why we need to think in a lot of variables. To invent a set of clubs with same length of shafts is absurd in my opinion, that'd break the essence of real golf. It's fine to make clubs that can help us win distance but the idea of making the same shafts for every club would distort the golf. Have you ever heard Severiano or Nicklaus speaking about that crazy idea??The answer is No, because Golf can't accept those sort of changes. Can you imaging Seve playing a lobwedge with a shaft of a 7 iron???Please, forget that idea. Thanks

[mr3856a]

Re: One size fits all

Damn, that's a pretty interesting theory. I just checked their website - I have to admit I'm curious.

I mean, where does it say you have to play with different length clubs?

[ubizmo]

Re: One size fits all

That wouldn't be real golf. Golf is the most interesting sport because of its difficulty. Golf is about imagination and that's why we need to think in a lot of variables. To invent a set of clubs with same length of shafts is absurd in my opinion, that'd break the essence of real golf. It's fine to make clubs that can help us win distance but the idea of making the same shafts for every club would distort the golf. Have you ever heard Severiano or Nicklaus speaking about that crazy idea??The answer is No, because Golf can't accept those sort of changes. Can you imaging Seve playing a lobwedge with a shaft of a 7 iron???Please, forget that idea. Thanks

Well... I was just wondering. There's a lot of rhetoric in your reply, but I take it you think that having all the same shafts would make the game too easy? I don't believe that for a minute. You say it's "fine" to make clubs that allow us to hit farther, but not fine to make clubs that make it easier to strike the ball consistently? If that's so, then I guess clubs with cavity backs and peripheral weighting, and all other sorts of "game improvement" clubs should never have been developed either. All of these clubs are meant to make it easier to strike the golf ball.

When I posed the question, I had no idea 1irongolf.com even existed. It was purely speculative, because I couldn't see any good reason why the shafts of different clubs should be different lengths. And as far as that goes, the pros *do* customize shaft lengths according to their own whims.

Those 1irongolf clubs are pretty expensive, but I bet one could get a custom made set of "uni-shaft" clubs made for a very reasonable cost.

[LowPost42]

Re: One size fits all

There are a few people trying to do a version of the DIY one-length iron set... with limited results. Again, Mr. Lake has spent tons of time perfecting the method (this isn't to say another individual couldn't, but it would probably be cheaper in the long run to just buy a set from 1irongolf).

Now, javichanche, I must take issue with your comments, especially the one about 'real golf'.

That is a can of worms that will explode if opened. It can easily be denegrated into an argument that unless you're using hickory with a piece of hardwood whipped to the end of it, with a piece of tanned cow painstakingly attached to the other end; and employing a striking target made of stitched leather, stuffed with feathers (or worse), then you, sir, are most certainly NOT playing 'real golf'.

Now, obviously my example was taken to the extreme, but it certainly proves a point. What has shaft length got to do with weather or not you're playing 'real' golf? Does playing at a pitch and putt constitute real golf? Does hitting a driver with 460 cc's of head constitute playing real golf? What about a high-MOI putter? Cavity back irons? Where do you draw the line?

My point is that regardless of equipment, you still have to swing the club in a manner that gets the ball going where you want it. You still have to hit fairways and greens, be able to get up and down, and drop putts to score well.

I don't understand how you can argue that equipment that provides more distance is OK, but equipment that helps consistency and accuracy would be a detriment to the game. I would love to see a pro grab a set of clubs that were the same length, tipped properly, and loft-gapped accordingly, and see what damage they could do. Imagine a pro that would try a set of irons that would potentially give them more accuracy and consistency. But wait. The pro's already have two out of those three. The only thing they don't do is play clubs the same length. But then again, they're much better at golf than we are.

For Joe Average Hacker, 1iron clubs may just be the answer. (But then again, a set of lessons may be the answer as well).

[Mr_Change]

Re: One size fits all

The site looks very interesting. I think it could be right, It might be worth giving a try. I know that I get 80 yards out of my 60% lob wedge. and I have at times hit it badly and had a lower ball trajectory and it has gone 130 yards.

[ubizmo]

Re: One size fits all

If I had a bunch of money to spend on golf equipment, which I don't, I'd certainly want to try the 1iron system.

Cavity-back irons were introduced as "game improvement" clubs or, less euphemistically, remedial clubs. They offer the advantage of being more forgiving than blades, but you give something up too: it's not as easy to "shape" shots with them. But the average recreational golfer just wants to hit straight, so it's a good trade.

I think "uni-shaft" clubs would offer the average golfer the possibility of more consistent ball-striking, and I think that's something most golfers want--except for those who already have it. My question was not whether this would still be "real golf"--clearly it would--but what, if anything, the golfer would be giving up in exchange for this consistency.

I can think of one thing. Shorter clubs have a shorter swing path radius, so they're angle of descent is a bit steeper. But if your pitching wedge had, say, the shaft length of your 5 iron, then it would also have the 5's angle of descent. I doubt the difference is very large but there would be some difference.

I think this would matter most in chipping, but I don't know that it'd make chipping worse, just different. We see some pros chipping with 3 and 5 woods now, so not everybody needs a short shaft for this.

[Simon Woo]

Re: One size fits all

Assuming you swing the same speed, a longer club definitely has a faster speed since it is wider outside the circle and is therefore travelling at a faster rate than a clubhead that is nearer to the centre of the cicle. So I'm sure that makes a bit of difference. If you compare the length difference between your PW and 3 wood say, I'm sure that amounts to quite a bit of difference. For a high handicapper perhaps such subtle differences don't really matter, but on a competitive basis, I'm sure that must mean something?

[LowPost42]

Re: One size fits all

The primary determining factor in distance is loft. 1" in club length ~ 2-3 MPH in swing speed. To wit, if all the lofts were the same, you'd be swinging some ridiculously long clubs to vary your distances.

[89imf]

Re: One size fits all

Hi Todd,


Pesonally I don't think it matters what clubs anyone uses as long as they are legal. Having clubs of the same length will work for some and not for others. It's not the club it's the person using it.

I did a little research. In 1965 Jack Nicklaus won the Masters with a score of 271. He shot a 64 in the third round. His 271 Masters record held up until 1997 when Tiger Woods shot a 270.

It took 32 years to beat Jack's record. The clubs Nicklaus played with in 1965 were a far cry from what Tiger used in 1997.

As one of the guys I played a round with a few months ago said, " Golf clubs are over rated". What he was saying is this, owning a $400 driver doesn't make you a better player. What makes you a better golfer is practice, practice and more practice. I don't care what clubs you use, if you learn to use them they will work just a well as the "big buck" clubs. I'm proof of that. I have a Cleveland 460 10.5 and a Knight 450 10.0. I got the Knight driver in a set of clubs I bought at Wal*mart for $150. Guess which club I use? The cheapo Knight driver, why? It works for me and I know how to use it

I can buy every golf club known to man but none of them will help my game unless I learn to swing properly. So, once again it's not the club. It's the person holding the club.

As for myself I refuse to get caught up in a buying frenzy. I'll learn to use what I have.

God bless,

Tom

[ubizmo]

Re: One size fits all

Assuming you swing the same speed, a longer club definitely has a faster speed since it is wider outside the circle and is therefore travelling at a faster rate than a clubhead that is nearer to the centre of the cicle.

But you can't make that assumption, Simon. It's because of the conservation of angular momentum, the same thing that makes a figure skater spin faster when she draws her arms or leg closer to her body. When you say "same speed", you mean RPMs or degrees of arc per unit of time. When you swing a club, you apply a force to it. If that force is the same, then when you swing a longer club it'll move at fewer RPMs, so even though the club head is moving a greater distance, it's traveling a bit slower.

Of course, people aren't ideal machines, so this theory isn't going to apply perfectly. Theory says that if you apply the same muscular force, you'll swing a 9 iron at higher RPM than a driver, but since the club head doesn't travel as far through space, it's speed will be about the same, but in reality that higher RPM swing with a 9 iron may throw you off balance, so you *won't* apply as much force to it, and in that case you'd end up with a slower club head speed. Balance is another variable of the human swing that doesn't apply to ideal machines. I think most people *do* swing a driver "harder" than they swing a 9 iron, i.e., they apply more muscular force to the club. One reason is that when they use the driver, the shot is all about distance. There's really no reason to try to hit a bill as far as you can with a 9 iron, when you could get the same distance with another club without putting everything you have into it.

But I do think that for many golfers, maybe most golfers, there is one iron in the bag that they feel most comfortable with, and that's because that iron's length is just right for their posture and typical swing force, so they swing it in a balanced and smooth way.

[ubizmo]

Re: One size fits all

Pesonally I don't think it matters what clubs anyone uses as long as they are legal. Having clubs of the same length will work for some and not for others. It's not the club it's the person using it.

Hello Tom. I agree with your statement, to the extent that I don't believe that having clubs of the same length is going to transform a bad golfer into a good golfer. You still need a consistent swing that works. I do think, however, that having clubs of the same length might make it possible for some golfers to arrive at that swing sooner. To my mind, it's "game improvement" option, the same as cavity-back irons and hybrids. Not everybody needs these options, of course. But they might help some golfers to play the best golf they are capable of, which might still not be that good. I don't think everyone is capable of playing good golf, but most are capable of playing better golf.

And given that a typical 9 iron is 2 inches shorter than a 5 iron, I don't think it's a bad idea to ask why this should be so. What does anyone gain by it?

As for needing to get "better" equipment, I guess it's all about finding clubs that feel good to swing. My 3 hybrid is a $20 club from Walmart. It's great. I like the way it swings and the way it feels at impact. I'm going to buy another one to keep in case this one gets damaged, since you never know how long Walmart will carry them. I also have a driver that I got from Target, I think, and it didn't cost much more. I don't hit the ball that well with it, but it's not the driver's fault. If I get to the point where I think my clubs are holding me back, I'll get new ones. But at the moment, it's not my clubs that are holding me back.

[LowPost42]

Re: One size fits all

But you can't make that assumption, Simon. It's because of the conservation of angular momentum, the same thing that makes a figure skater spin faster when she draws her arms or leg closer to her body. When you say "same speed", you mean RPMs or degrees of arc per unit of time. When you swing a club, you apply a force to it. If that force is the same, then when you swing a longer club it'll move at fewer RPMs, so even though the club head is moving a greater distance, it's traveling a bit slower.

Actually, after re-reading what Simon was saying, he's right. IF (and that's a big, big if) you can generate the same swing speed, then longer clubs will be longer than shorter clubs.

In actuality, our swings all swing at about the same speed. How many times do you swing the driver on a launch monitor, and get a bunch of speeds at around the same speed? Then swing a 5 iron (or any other club). The number drops, but the numbers are all clustered together. If we found a way to just look at the butt of the club, and measure that speed, I'd be willing to bet that it's speed would be pretty consistent, no matter what club you had in your hands.

To be honest, I don't know off the top of my head why clubs are stepped in 1/2" increments, besides trying to keep swing weight constant. Assuming this is the reason, I could keep swing weight (or feel, or heft) constant, there would be no reason to shorten the clubs. Again, we're assuming the stepping is to keep feel constant, as head weight goes up in the shorter clubs.

Now, to further Simon's argument (and I think I said this earlier), if all clubs were the same LOFT, then length would be the determining factor in distance. But then, looking at the roughly 36 MPH difference between 1W and 5i, (in a conventional setup) the math is as follows: 1" = 2 MPH (for arguments sake). The 5i is swung at 70 MPH, and is 37", with 26º of loft. So to get the driver swinging at 105 MPH, we'd need to add 18" (more or less). So your driver is 55", and the same loft as your 5i, just to get the SS up. And I doubt that you'd get the same distance as your 'regularily sized driver' due to control issues.

Thankfully, clubs are made up of different lofts, and length is almost immaterial.

[ubizmo]

Re: One size fits all

To be honest, I don't know off the top of my head why clubs are stepped in 1/2" increments, besides trying to keep swing weight constant. Assuming this is the reason, I could keep swing weight (or feel, or heft) constant, there would be no reason to shorten the clubs. Again, we're assuming the stepping is to keep feel constant, as head weight goes up in the shorter clubs.

I think it's probably the other way around: head weight has to go up to maintain swing weight BECAUSE the shafts are shorter.

Why the shafts are shorter remains a mystery.