New fitting idea **open discussion**

[LowPost42]

I've recently re-considered a fitting theory that I abandoned after inquiring about it and was more or less shot down. But I managed to find a guy who not only has looked into the method, but uses it with 100% success (ie no returned sets built to this standard). He says that he can't sell a standard built iron set anymore.

Here's the premise (based largely off the 1irongolf.com theory): You have an ideal athletic position. Think of any athlete standing in a static position, as they anticipate requiring dynamic movement. Volleyball players. Baseball players. Middle linebackers in American Football. They all stand the same was as the ideal golf posture - feet shoulder width apart, weight centered (or slightly forward of center), spine angled forward. We know in the golf swing the ideal spine angle is around 33° (adjust for your plane as necessary).

Now, in a conventional iron set, you get progressively more bent over. Don't believe me? Stand in front of a full length mirror. Hold your longest iron/hybrid. Get a friend (or the mrs) to use a dry erase marker (or a piece of tape, or lipstick, or whatever) to mark the top of your head. Grab your PW. Now where's your head? What? Below that line? That's what I said would happen.

So now, which is it? Is that 4 iron (or 3 or whatever) put you in your most athletic position? Or was it the PW? Or was it some club in between?

I hit some test clubs, built on this theory. Every one was fantastic. Great trajectory, consistent ball flight, felt the head just fine... needless to say, I'm re-engineering my whole set. Then every club will be a favourite club. (Oddly enough, my 8 iron was already in spec - no wonder I always hit it well).

[LowPost42]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

Hi, Low Post 42, Sorry , but I don't quite follow your reasoning. If as I understand it you are advocating shafts should all be of equal length, wouldn't this have a dramatic effect on swing weight etc.and would most likely require head weights be adjusted. I find the idea fascinating and intend doing a little experimenting myself,regards..

I haven't fully thought out all the details, myself. But lets discuss some workarounds.

For SW, I think you could reduce the headweight slope. Apparently PureFit sells heads designed for single-length irons - so this may be the solution to this problem.

Shaft tipping is another consideration. I'm not sure what kind of tipping would be required here - again, largely based on head weight I would figure.

Theoretically, lie angles would all be the same in the ideal set. However, the reason I first started on this fitting line was because I didn't have a bending machine, and didn't want to pay $10/club to experiment. So my original thought was to tip the shafts, put them in the heads, get into the optimum golf stance, then mark where the shaft ends with the toe up (to get a quarter under it). This was my first theory before the complicating factors of swingweight, flex progression. I didn't think that shaft length was all that important - especially as when you figure that at a proper impact position, the centrifugal axis is your shoulder, not the end of the club. The straight line from the head runs up the shaft and up your arm (unless you're flipping or holding the club off at impact). So I concluded that the half inch step didn't mean much.

The other interesting point is that if all the club lengths are the same, then the lies (set at the factory, in increasingly upright lies) will get more upright - forcing you to be more upright. So now we're back to equalizing the lies for clubs of the same length.

Everyone's thoughts are welcome on the subject.

[ogallalabob]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

The other interesting point is that if all the club lengths are the same, then the lies (set at the factory, in increasingly upright lies) will get more upright - forcing you to be more upright. So now we're back to equalizing the lies for clubs of the same length.

Everyone's thoughts are welcome on the subject.[/quote]

Wouldn't this also change the flight of the ball?

I have read some golfers (Darren Clarke being one) like to have more upright long irons and flatter short irons because it is easier to draw an upright iron and fade a flatter iron.

Also would not having every iron the same length also make your yardages closer together and not give you the seperation you need between clubs? I always thought that was one of the reasons that clubs become shorter to slow down the swing speed as well as promoting more of an steep swing.

Though it is not like I know much in this area, so if it works great. Though I would like to hear the results.

[bill reed]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi
was it not shark that made clubs years ago with every 3 club shafts the same length and were also an inch shorter then the standered clubs, they said you would hit more fairways, there was a load sold.
bill

[xix]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

This actually makes a lot of sense.

I have a spare set of heads that I may start experimenting with.

The only thing bothering me would be the lie angle of the set because, as you say, the long irons are more upright than the short irons.

I'll build and weight match a 6, 7 and 8 iron using shafts of the same length and take them to my practice area then report back on my distance differentials (currently 12 yards between clubs +/- 1 yard).

[bill reed]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi xix
think you got it wrong way round.
short irons are more upright than long irons.
i see you use smt durometer wedges, lowpost told me abouth them and have talked wife in to getting me them for my xmas, what do you think of them, i trust lowposts opinion and i know he knows his stuff about smt.
bill

[xix]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi xix
think you got it wrong way round.
short irons are more upright than long irons.
i see you use smt durometer wedges, lowpost told me abouth them and have talked wife in to getting me them for my xmas, what do you think of them, i trust lowposts opinion and i know he knows his stuff about smt.
bill

Not like me to get something arse for elbow.

As for the durometers, they are the best wedges I've ever had bar none, and I've tried all kinds of wedges.
I've built a load of these up for friends after they watched me spin my ball back from one side of a green straight off the other side (intentionally I might add).
They impart some serious spin on the ball but are very easy to control.
I have the green insert models and won't be changing them in the forseeable future
You won't be disappointed with them.

[slater170]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

bill
go for the wedges mate i got a 53 and 59deg on the strength of lowposts recommendation and they feel superb and gained a lot more control over short game!

[bill reed]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi xix and slater
thanks for backing up what lowpost told me i had made my mind up to get them but you both have made it a sure thing,
thank again
bill

[LowPost42]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

The other interesting point is that if all the club lengths are the same, then the lies (set at the factory, in increasingly upright lies) will get more upright - forcing you to be more upright. So now we're back to equalizing the lies for clubs of the same length.

Everyone's thoughts are welcome on the subject.

Wouldn't this also change the flight of the ball?

I have read some golfers (Darren Clarke being one) like to have more upright long irons and flatter short irons because it is easier to draw an upright iron and fade a flatter iron.

Also would not having every iron the same length also make your yardages closer together and not give you the seperation you need between clubs? I always thought that was one of the reasons that clubs become shorter to slow down the swing speed as well as promoting more of an steep swing.

Though it is not like I know much in this area, so if it works great. Though I would like to hear the results.

A lot of golfers think that lie angle relates to shaping the ball. The answer is yes and no. If the lie is too flat, the toe will grab, and hold the face open. If the lie is too upright, the heel will grab, and spin the face shut; resulting in fades and draws (or slices and hooks), respectively. However, what's more important is that incorrect lie angles will start your ball in that direction - even when struck perfectly. A being 1° off in lie for a PW, hit from 100 yards, will result in a 22 foot miss. So 2° off is a 44 foot miss - almost 15 yards - or in other words, the difference between finding the middle of the green or missing it entirely!

Now, shaft length is NOT the #1 determiner of distance. Loft is. It's why your 5 iron is longer than your 9 iron, not the 2" difference. Increased shaft length = more yardage only if you can maintain sweetspot contact. In other words, you wouldn't necessarily hit a 40" 5 iron any further than a 37" 5 iron. However, I have read reports of bigger yardage gaps in the shorter irons, as they're longer than 'normal'.

I'm still struggling to understand the need for a steeper swing, beyond 'because the lies are more upright, you need to bend over more'.

[bill reed]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi lowpost
what would happen if you put the same shaft of say a 7 iron in all clubs and had the same angle/lie as well and only had the loft of the clubs that were diffrent. say you were only doing that to say 7,8,9,w,sw then your swing would be on plane with all the clubs
bill

[LowPost42]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi lowpost
what would happen if you put the same shaft of say a 7 iron in all clubs and had the same angle/lie as well and only had the loft of the clubs that were diffrent. say you were only doing that to say 7,8,9,w,sw then your swing would be on plane with all the clubs
bill

Without compensatory tipping, the clubs would get progressively whippier, as the head weight increases. With the increased head weight, the swingweight would also go up - not necessarily a bad thing.

[bill reed]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

hi lowpost
so how would a balanced set of say a 5 to a wedge play if the all had same shaft lengths, i sure most of us have hit a 7 iron with the face closed and got it as far as we hit a 5 iron so it the loft that controls the distance more that the shaft length.
just saw two smt drivers on e-bay for £16 for both a inception 5% driver and a carnoustie 6% driver, dont see many smt items on e-bay.
item no 180032208952.
bill

[xix]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

I got my irons and my driver from e bay.
I'm now biding my time until I see some Avocet rescue woods for sale then I can replace my 5 and 7 woods and have a bag full of SMT gear (except for my much loved, trusty White Hot 2 ball putter which I'll never replace).

[ogallalabob]

Re: New fitting idea **open discussion**

A lot of golfers think that lie angle relates to shaping the ball. The answer is yes and no. If the lie is too flat, the toe will grab, and hold the face open. If the lie is too upright, the heel will grab, and spin the face shut; resulting in fades and draws (or slices and hooks), respectively. However, what's more important is that incorrect lie angles will start your ball in that direction - even when struck perfectly. A being 1° off in lie for a PW, hit from 100 yards, will result in a 22 foot miss. So 2° off is a 44 foot miss - almost 15 yards - or in other words, the difference between finding the middle of the green or missing it entirely!

Now, shaft length is NOT the #1 determiner of distance. Loft is. It's why your 5 iron is longer than your 9 iron, not the 2" difference. Increased shaft length = more yardage only if you can maintain sweetspot contact. In other words, you wouldn't necessarily hit a 40" 5 iron any further than a 37" 5 iron. However, I have read reports of bigger yardage gaps in the shorter irons, as they're longer than 'normal'.

I'm still struggling to understand the need for a steeper swing, beyond 'because the lies are more upright, you need to bend over more'.

From Golf Digest article "whats in my bag" Darrin Clarke 2004:

Irons
This mix-and-match set was the first combo set TaylorMade put together on tour. The 3- through 6-iron are rac Combo cavity-backs, and the 7-iron through pitching wedge are rac MB. The shafts are Royal Precision Rifle High steel, 7.5. My long irons are bent 3 degrees upright to help me draw the ball. My short irons are bent 1 degree flat to help me fade it.


I have never experimented with upright or flat but it seems to me that it would be easier to come from the inside on a more upright club.