Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
i went out and tried to swing without using my hips to time my shots and i could not hit a ball for toffee. with my open stance i have to use my hips and slid them to the target before i start the downswing, my hip slid triggers the start of my arms in the downswing.
i took sometime this morning trying to feel just what was happening in each move. when my hips slid my right elbow drops in front of my right hip. there is hips slid but no turn till my right elbow drops. then my hips turn my weight is already more on my right side. my hips have slid about 4 to 6 inches but my shoulders have not slid as much and i seem to swing more under my head if you know what i mean.
i don't think about my arms or hand at any point in the swing and i do get a feeling in my body of my legs and hips generating some power, it may be very small but there is a feeling of that happening.
the movements of my legs and hips do also put my shoulders into position so i can play a push shot.
and i feel that my hands are impact are still traveling down the line to the target.
with my old closed stance and hitting a draw i had none of this feeling of my body helping it was more an arms hands and shoulder swing and the crossing of the hands after impact was important. with the Trevino swing there is no crossing of the hands till there about waist high.
i spent about an hour trying a few diffrent things but the only thing that worked with the Trevino swing was using the lower body (Hips and Legs) and doing that way you did not actively use the arms and hands, they just react to what the body does and i can't for the life of me see how using the body this way id the tail wagging the dog.
one other think i did was swing with my feet together and try and not sway and use more a arms round the body swing, with that i felt like the tail was wagging the dog.
I'm so use to swing with a really open stance but without starting the swing with my hip slid i just cant seem to time my swing and i swing over the top out to in. its only when i use my hips to control the swing do i get a good repeating swing where i have a nice controlled fade.
with my swing i need to use my hips and legs and they do contribute to the power of my swing as my arms and hands do not give me the same power. it may not add a lot to the overall power but it does contributer some and the more important thing with me is the the lower body keeps my swing in time and lets me swing at 90% power and do that time and time again so i know just how far i hit each club and that control does come from my hips and legs and not my arms and hand.
what I'm saying i am saying about my swing and not about other types of swing. i do believe what you are saying is true and some swing and did apply to the old way i swung before i did my back in.
but i have went to the bother of going out and trying it and i really did not think it applies to the Trevino style and that does rely on working the hips and legs to get the arms to swing on plane to give you a push shot and the hip turn helps drive the right elbow out away from the hip as you come into impact.
i really don't think you can take the hips and legs out this kind of swing and use just the arms, hands and shoulders so it so hard to see if there is any power added with the hips but you do get the sense of the hips adding to the power and i feel like Greg and Brian and do believe that some power is added to the swing by the legs and hips. how much is what i don't know.

very interesting thread Go Low had me out at 6am trying out some of what you have said and did have me thinking a lot last night and this morning so i had to find out what worked.
cheers
bill

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Tigers hips may be shifting and clearing at the start of the downswing, but not because he's physically turning his hips.

From the top of your swing, move your left knee out toward the target. Your hips have to follow. They're attached.

Part of the reason so many people swing OTT is they have no patience to allow their lower body to "set" to take the ever increasing speed of the arms in the downswing.

No set to prepare for the speed = ugly lunge with top half/OTT/get ahead of the ball. Set the legs first then swing away. If your left leg is out toward the target from underneath your body, you can swing pretty hard and in balance with your dominant side.

Neil you are right. But why does the left knee move? Becuase you are using a downswing pivot to return the club square to the ball

From http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm

This photo demonstrates the first active body movements that occur when Aaron Baddeley initiates the downswing. In particular, note-: i) that the left hip has rotated backwards thus squaring the hips; ii) that there is a definite lateral shift of the hips to the left (towards the target); iii) that the left knee has moved away from the right knee causing a widening of the distance between the knees; iv) that weight is is replanted back onto the left foot. I believe that the left knee moves automatically, and without any need for conscious thought, as a result of the weight transfer to the left that occurs when a golfer shifts weight back onto the left foot and shift-rotates the hips. In other words, a golfer only has to think of simultaneously replanting weight onto the left foot and shift-rotating the hips.

You have to shift your weight and have passive hands to allow the upper bdy to swing the cub through and the club to drop behind you. This can only happen by moving the lower body first and keeping the hands passive. This is how you drop into the 'slot'

With regards to karate - I did boxing as a kid and the first thing you are taught is that to throw a decent punch you use the whole body, legs, buttocks and shoulders http://www.ehow.com/how_16454_throw-punch-boxing.html

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I think there is a lot of merit in the proposal that the lower body should work in reaction to support the swing of the shoulders and arms in the golf swing.

If we were to took a sledge hammer and used it to drive a hefty nail at ankle height into a wooden beam then as we swung the hammer our torso, hips legs and feet would react naturally and with no conscious thought to support and stabilise the motion of the upper body. We would fix our concentration on the nail and would likely as not swing perfectly on plane, we would not swing out to in or in to out but in to square, we would also stay in balance.

Incorrect use of the lower body and particularly the hips are a major cause of poor ball contact. People get confused by over complex instruction on the way the hips should slide, turn, coil etc, this can lead to poor weight shift, blocking of the arms, shanks, pushes, slices, hooks and pulls.

In my opinion the lower body should work in reaction to and support the swing speed generators, these are the shoulders, arms and hands.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Pnearn
interesting link and makes for a good read.
i have the the books, "swing like a pro and also the 5 fundamentals. both books have helped in my knowledge of golf.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Brian
i think in your type of swing and the way i use to play what you say is right in that the body works in reaction to the turn of the shoulders and arms.
but i think in my open stance swing the body has to be used a lot more as you have to change the plane of your downswing by your hip sway and you come in a lot more from in to out and you set up your downswing so you push the ball. that so diffrent to your set up and in your swing, the wrists work harder and have to turn over. in my swing the last thing you is to turn your wrists before your hands are at least hip high and your hand will turn over just after impact. my right elbow don't fully extend till maybe 6 or 8 inches past the ball but your right elbow extends almost right after impact.
the results are the same as we both get really good ball compression but go about it in such diffrent ways.
i think the biggest think is understanding how your swing work and what are the things that can go wrong and why.
then you at least know what you did wrong. i do think a lot of golfers never fully understand there swings and you get them turning to you and asking, "what did i do wrong?" most guys say you moved your head?.
i know in my swing that my body does control the timing of my swing and i think your 3SK system it more a reflex to your good set up. please correct me if i have it wrong.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

What I am suggesting is that to use an aggressive and artificially early rotation of the hips in the downswing is an unnatural action that ruins many golf swings. The action in it's self will encourage the right shoulder to be thrown out and the clubface to move too far away from the body.

I think many golfers, even those at the top of the game have a distorted view of what they actually do in the swing. Some great players have used poor swing mechanics but manage to create suitable adjustments that bring the clubface back on target, surely this would not be a model on which new learners should be basing their new swings?

I would recommend that the swing should be kept close as possible to the natural way the brain and body want to swing the clubface into the ball by replicating the action of hammer and nail. There are some areas where natural instincts become a little confused like trying to hit up with a flipping action and swinging too fast but these should be easily overcome with a little instruction on the correct angle the club needs to strike the ball and ground.

I have mentioned 3 skills as it uses a different way of thinking such that the only consideration in the swing should be the in to square to in path, there should be ball turf contact at the correct angle with all clubs except the driver and the clubface should move open to square to closed through impact. The system does have some great imagery though, it teaches how to strike the ball correctly using analagies like driving nails into the ball that clarify so much to the student.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Brian
you say that your swing path is open to square to open. should that not be open to square to closed in your type of swing.
my swing is open to square.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Neil you are right. But why does the left knee move? Becuase you are using a downswing pivot to return the club square to the ball

Not too sure what you mean there pnearn?

I move my left knee because I had to learn how to move my left knee. I was getting too much weight on my left side too early in the downswing. One cannot move ones knee around when most of ones weight is on it. So now I move my left knee as the trigger to start my downswing. I am unsure of the pivot you mention. I move my left knee because I move it, and it leads everything else in the chain.

Also, I feel like getting my left knee target-side of my hips provides a brace against which to rotate/pivot through the ball and it helps keep my head behind impact.

I can't say that I have any sort of pivot involved in the downswing. In the follow through yes, but that is another matter.

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Brian
you say that your swing path is open to square to open. should that not be open to square to closed in your type of swing.
my swing is open to square.
cheers
bill

Bill,

3 skills uses an In-to-Square-to-In path but the clubface should approach the ball with the clubface set open, it should square up at impact and leave the ball closed. I will edit my last post.

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I think the last 3 posts clarify exactly what I stated earlier

IMHO Brian, has closed shoulders, keeps the club fairly closed (angled hinge) and hits down and through to the right with a closed right hand. The puck release, hitters swing. Monty, Moe Norman, Lehmann etc (apologies if Ive got this wrong mate)

Bill, has a very open stance, again keeps the club closed but uses a swinging motion of the body to turn through it. Trevino, Richard Blake

I am probably more like Brian in the set up, have more clubface rotation on the way back and use my torso to square the clubface coming down (horizontal hinge). A 'swinging' motion. Paul Wilson, Tiger, Baddeley etc. As Greg says I have played enough that I could swing OK with just my arms (sometimes) but I would lose distance, consistency and could never work the ball *given the swing I have*

Alll 3 of these are perfectly valid. All 3 get us and better golfers round. None is scientifically incorrect. How can it be? All 3 need to 'feel' the clubface and clubhead with the left hand and right forefinger which is educating the hands. Lets have fun, play with what we have and enjoy it. No right or wrong, just advice and discussion

I'll bow out for good this time .. I promise!

[bruin]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

having read with interest the opions on this thread, i thought i would add my experiance(limited as it is).
i tried for years to swing from the ground up , with very inconistent results, and poor distance.
then i got the 3sk's book and had to effectly re-learn a swing, which is all about the late release of the club , ie an arms/wrist swing. at least that is how i am now swinging the club, and have increased distance and also slowed down the whole swing as well.i would say the maximum increase in my club head speed is down to wrists , releasing late and closing the face through the ball. very difficult to do and control , but worth the hours of practice , when it all goes right.i no longer think about my lower body , it just comes along for the ride, which has reduced my swing thoughts from a dozen to one. namely hit down and close the face. that in it's self is hard to do , as the timing has to be precise, but slowing the swing down a little helps, but if it speeds up , it all goes a bit pear shaped. i still think this is the way forward for me , and will continue this summer with this swing , and do battle with the speed demon and learn to contol what i think is a good swing.
hope this adds something to this thread.

[GoNavy]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

OK I will add my .02 cents. I am in the legs as support camp. Why..because at my club there is a one legged guy that plays off a 3 Hddy, he routinely out drives me, and I have two legs..lol...chuck the hit man, the trick shot guy, hits 300 yds off his knees, standing on poles, etc...there is a guy on the golf channels sometimes that is paraplegic has no use of his legs, hits the ball strapped to his golf cart, special seat ...who also smacks it quite will..so I am thinking legs don't do much, but support. Now having said that, I am not in the top down approach, because the arm move very quickly in the down swing, I still think you need to get them legs out ahead of the swing, or they won't be there to support much of anything. I think the problem is people trying to use all body, or all arms the swing a golf club, they need to work together.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

ho Go Low
i have been reading more and thinking more too and i have come to the point where i don't know if i start the down swing or if I'm just aware of my hips slid starting it, but i am sure that when my left shoulder comes under my chin what starts my downswing is my hip slid, the next think i am aware of is my right elbow moving against my side and then my hips start turning and my arms then move away from my body as i make contact with the ball.
i have done this slow about 100 times to see if i start my hips or if it happens and i think now that it happens and not me making it happen.
i don't know it this helps any as i still slid my hips but it more controlled my my body than by me.
cheers
bill

[GoNavy]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Yep..know what your saying. If I had a dollar for every time a student told me..what about this turn in a barrel swing thought...lol...I would like to find the guy that started that and beat him senseless with his own clubs...that small bit teaching has caused more people to snatch the club inside, lay the club off, swing over the top, have no weight shift...the list goes on..very bad advice.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
i know what your saying as i feel the same way with my Trevino/Blake swing. everything seems to happen just right and you feel its so easy to hit the ball really well and its not like your really trying. it the same when adjusting the amount of fade it seems to be so easy to do and control.
i lose about 10 yards to gain more control but thats the way i like to play.
thanks
bill