Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

[golfndawg]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Well I guess we've pretty well beat the weight shift topic in the ground. Hopefully the discussion, articles, scientific responses, etc. have cleared up this sinister topic and everyone has learned something new, or it confirmed their belief. We also learned (hopefully) that almost all the clubhead speed is produced by the upper right side - namely the right arm levers and shoulder.

Does anyone want to discuss the upper right side, what I like to call "the structured right side"? Also, how the structure is formed, how it works, and what other swing benefits (e.g. cupped or bent-back right wrist at impact, square clubface at impact, naturally de-lofting club's loft, divots after impact, naturally retaining the so-called lag angle between the leading arm and club shaft, maximum clubhead speed through impact, etc., etc.) it produces?

YEA, bring it on......I know myself that just right shoulder back and down isn't enough for me for the right side, but that is working pretty solid. Although I think I under estimate my golf swing and I am always asking for advice or inputs and I should sometimes just not ask or not worry about things because it may be just fine. Anyway, I love to read.

[golfinguy28]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

here is some analogies of the swing i like. It's a bit late (seems all rapped up), but I'v been busy lately haven't been able to respond.

Its a bit lenghtly but it is so simple yet hard to explain.

Imagine a sling shot on top of an race car. If you pull back that sling shot and release the projectile will go far. If you drive at 100 mph and pull back the sling shot and release it when hitting a certain line in the road, it will go slighly further but not much kinda far. If you drive 100mph and pull back the sling shot and hit a solid steel wall at the same place that line was and release the sling shot the projectile will go flying super far. Now instead of a wall inmage there was a hook on the car that would catch a cable, and instead of that try to imagine the brakes having the stoping power of a cable and hook or steel wall. Just like the faster you stop the further the projectile will go because of the better transfer of potential to kinetic energy), the better brace you have with your left leg, the more potential energy turns into kinetic.

The sling shot is the right arm, the car is the body, and the wall is the left leg or the tires, which contact the ground is the leg (makes it slighly move relevant). The body moves a bit but mostly supports the moving of the right arm, and the left leg is a brace allowing all that momentum and power you have to that "lag" you have built up and once the left leg braces against the ground it release.

Another analogy is the wheels on a car is the left leg and the engine is the right arm and the body is the transmision. It doesn't matter how hard the engine run if there is no trasmision, nor does it matter if you have engine transmision but weak breakes. The transmisions doesn't drive the engine the engine drives the transmision, the transmisions allows the engine to deliver traction and movment. Just like the body allows the right arm to deliver power via the left leg bracing and allowing all that potial energy to release. If you spun your hips out your leg would not be able to brace you very eficiently and all that lets say 100 newtons of potential energy is only allowed to release to 80 and you have 20 newtons left of potential energy that you haven't used.

So many analogies. But all of them show that the left leg is crucial as a brace but itself gives very little power (if that steel wall in the above example moved towards the car you would get a bit more distance. I believe that is why tiger "jumps" at impact so that not only does his right side act as a brace and let all his kinetic energy turn into potential energy, he bouces back a bit and actaully adds a tad more potential energy but not much, kinda of a whipping effect. when you whip a towel you don't just whip it out, you whip it out then pull back a tad. In order to jump back you need to have your hips cleared so I believe that is where people get the whole clearing your hips fast gives you speed, because it does add a little but it is very little and unnesisary) So the leg is a brace and the body (transmision) moving allows the right arm (engine) to deliver power. The body must move in order to allow the right arm a proper path with little resistance, but it doesn't itself add any power but is very nessisary in transmitting power as a transmision is very key to the engine tranferring power to the wheels.

To throw a knockout punch, you first have to step your left leg out with your body and then you brace yourself with your left leg and allow all of that potential energy transfer to kinetic into your fist as it releases into the target. Martial artist do tell you to put your whole body into it, but they don't say punch with you body, they just mean use your body. If you didn't take that step in which I spoke about earlier you would turn you hips to push back and be able to brace yourself and your body moves allowing your fist to go flying into your target. the body adds no power, it allows your fist to travel a much further distance tho. If your arm is 2' long instead of delivering 2' of force, you are delivering 4'-6' or arm pushing because your body it working to support the arm just like in the downswing the body is moving to support the right arm and the leg is moving to support the body. the legs are not moving the body or arm nor is the body moving the arm, the arm is moving itself and the upper body is moving to allow th arm to move the lower body is supporting all of that. that being said the lower body will move first.

Another example is basketball, you don't think of moving the shoulders and then the arm and then the wrist, you think of moving your hands and the arm and shoulder responds to that by moving first to support the hands. just as the lower body moves first in golf, but it is the right hand that is moving the hips and legs unconciously.

hope that wasn't too confusing if anyone is still reading it.

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I am always surprised at how far and well I can hit a ball with my feet close together. You are forced to swing from the arms and shoulders and stay centered.

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Hello everybody.

I was doing what I normally do (that is, everything I do during the day whilst my brain is on the range! That's why I do things like chuck my dirty linen in the washing up, or wonder where the remote is when I'm holding it!) and hope this tags on quite nicely to this lovely thread.

To allow the right side to work its' magic, can anyone post any pictures (face on) of good ball strikers in their follow through where their right arm is parallel to the ground for me please? I have a curiosity that needs to be satisfied.

I'm thinking that to allow the right side to fire through powerfully, and to stop the wrists flipping (which I think is a natural reaction to get the club coming back to the inside after impact) good ball strikers have a firm connection between their upper left arm and their turning torso, and actually fold the left elbow?

It seems that when I do this the clubhead comes through much faster and I have no breakdown of the wrists through impact.

Is this an erroneous observation?

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I know....the legs.

If I was to swing with just my shoulders, arms and hands alone, I would probably hit a driver 200 yds.

If I get to add my legs and hips, I get 300. But the key here is that I don't add my legs last in the DS, I add them first from the top. And everything else goes in sequence...legs, hips, torso, shoulders, arms and hands last.

It sure feels like my arms and hands do all the work though because they are moving the fastest into impact, they are resisting to the most force trying to keep the club in control. It gets pretty heavy holding onto a club being swung that hard.

What's interesting is what is involved in getting that that extra 100 yards. If I was to only use my lower body as a support to the upper only attack, I still only get about 220...10% more. That basically only allows a slightly wider range of movements.

But if I was to start the swing using the legs and hips first, this has a wonderful affect. It does two significant things: It adds rotational acceleration and it allows the upper body to relax a bit more for better control.

I might be able to squeak out a 225 yarder if I really had to with just my upper body, but I would not be in control, and this is not the objective here...balance of power and control is.

By allowing the lower body the lead movement and letting the upper follow, I get the desired length and control to find my ball after hitting it.

Question. If you start the downswing with a conscious arm movement back and down how do you lag or float load the club, how does that movement 'stress the shaft' and prevent casting?

I ask because I tried this last night and like Greg I could hit it with my hands only, albeit inconsistently (some thins and pulls) .. but when I did time it cleanly with a hands down plane motion my distance was well down. I didnt feel the club 'load' against my right forefinger as I do when I use my body to turn and the swing felt much slower post impact (I finished a lot shorter like a punch shot)

I also found it very hard to move my hands back and down without the right wrist moving and losing some bend on the left - i.e. I was casting. My hands couldnt move as the controlling engine down from the top without my wrists moving too?

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Hello everybody.

I was doing what I normally do (that is, everything I do during the day whilst my brain is on the range! That's why I do things like chuck my dirty linen in the washing up, or wonder where the remote is when I'm holding it!) and hope this tags on quite nicely to this lovely thread.

To allow the right side to work its' magic, can anyone post any pictures (face on) of good ball strikers in their follow through where their right arm is parallel to the ground for me please? I have a curiosity that needs to be satisfied.

I'm thinking that to allow the right side to fire through powerfully, and to stop the wrists flipping (which I think is a natural reaction to get the club coming back to the inside after impact) good ball strikers have a firm connection between their upper left arm and their turning torso, and actually fold the left elbow?

It seems that when I do this the clubhead comes through much faster and I have no breakdown of the wrists through impact.

Is this an erroneous observation?

Hi Neil, Wazupp!!

I think this video explains how to generate more club speed by actually slowing down the the hands at impact and retracting the left elbow back, a smaller arc is made with the hands that whips the clubhead through at speed

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Hi Neil, Wazupp!!

I think this video explains how to generate more club speed by actually slowing down the the hands at impact and retracting the left elbow back, a smaller arc is made with the hands that whips the clubhead through at speed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5nNk...eature=related

Well wadda ya know.

Just call me Jeff.

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Interesting when people talk of one plane, two plane and rotary swings.

In my eyes, the only differences between swings are whether the club is swung generally lower in a low arc around the body, or higher (the extremity being Furyk).

The thing I find very interesting is that people seem to view Hogan's swing as one plane and rotary.

I suppose I can see where "one plane" comes from. It pigeon holes it for everyone. But Hogan certainly wasn't rotary.

The more I learn about what it takes to hit a golf ball solidly on target, the more I find Hogan's method by far the easiest.

It has minimal working parts. It allows me to keep track of the clubhead all through the swing. I can shape it either way and it has a very piercing trajectory.

But the rotary part of the golf swing, to me, is what confuses people.

Like in any athletic action, our body needs to stabilize itself in order to perform the desired action. It has constantly changing muscle positions, however small, to ensure we stay in our intended position (standing up!). People don't seem to get this, and it's responsible for the horror shows on the links at the weekend. Why don't people compute that keeping your balance will occur naturally if you allow it to?

With the Hoganesque action I can swing to the top (which is more or less where the shaft can fall behind me in comparison with a more upright action), step to my left toward the target and fire my right arm through the ball hard, from the inside past my right hip, without having to wait for it to fall into "the slot".

My "release" now comes from my right elbow. I know when I haven't used my right elbow and straightened too early cos that's when I'll flip it left!

It really feels compact, powerful and a natural way to hit the ball hard down my target line. And it works mostly because I see the lower body bracing itself in order to give me room and balance to hit hard with my right arm, "punching through the ball", for want of a better phrase, rather than giving it a slap with my wrists.

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

You should NOT feel the club load against the right forefinger. There should NOT be any pressure on the right forefinger until deep into the swing and through impact. Creating or feeling pressure on the right forefinger is a sure sign of using the right hand and wrist to hit "at" the ball, which almost always throws the club shaft outward and off-plane. It can also be the result of a rotary move of the shoulders turning out instead of the right shoulder moving down...or "consciously" starting the downswing by rotating the hips or shifting weight to the lead leg.

Again I dont agree with this. Certainly the golf machine would disgaree with you there. In a 'swingers' rotational body led swing where the swing is based on the centrifugal force of lower body rotation pulling the arms, you sense clubhead lag through (pressure point #3) in the right hand forefinger

In the muscular thrust of a 'hitter' you have no use for this feel - although it is still there

I dont disagree with any of what you are saying for a specific pattern, but you seem to think there is only one type of swing .. and everything else is 'scientifically incorrect'. There are many different and valid patterns all of which use different mechanics and thats what makes golf so interesting and fun. How many peope have come along with a magic bullet answer. Each teacher has his own method and ideas and thats fine. I use complete body rotation and passive hands, centrifugal force to drive my arms and flat left wrist. I use my lower body to "power" my swing, not my arms, which "come along for the ride" as I turn. I dont believe for one minute that im scentifically incorrect. I was probably when I was a handsy flipper

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
i have been re-reading hogan and also Mindy Blake and one thing Mindy talks about is setting up the right and left side's so your in the "K" set up before you start your swing. it like your almost in the impact set up with your body. your left hips is pushed out more to the target and your right leg is flexed but resisting any backward sway of both hips and legs and both feeet hand your weight on both insteps, also the right eye is lower than the left at set up and i see most pros have there right eye lower than there left at impact too.
i have been trying this set up with my Trevino system and its working really well and i seem to be hitting a little longer and dont have as much sway to the target as i'm already half way there at set up.
what i was wanting to know is by doing this am i swinging more against my almost fixed left side and that why i'm hitting longer. i still stand 45% open.
when setting up i feel like i'm pushing my hips to the left even on my backswing and i push my hip to where i want the ball to start off.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

ho Go Low
thanks for your reply.
i would say that i have not got to the left side by unconscious weight transfer as in Mindy's setup you have most of the weight already on your left side at set up so you do that on purpose and on the backswing its more blanced between the feet rather than more weight going onto the right side on the back swing. on the downswing you do shift some weight to your left side but i do think this happens unconsciously as a resulf of a hip shift but again that happens without thinking.
with the Mindy Blake system you set up and once set you swing but you dont think about any part of the swing it all just happens by reflex to your set up.
i have again posted a picture of Richard Wax so you might see what i mean better about Mindy's set up and reflex swing if you look at Richard in fram 4 and 5 and Hogan in the two pictures you sent in there are a few things that look the same but both are very diffrent swings.
that last time i spoke to Richard he was 65 years old and playing off 5 handicap.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

ho Go Low
thanks for your reply.
i would say that i have not got to the left side by unconscious weight transfer as in Mindy's setup you have most of the weight already on your left side at set up so you do that on purpose and on the backswing its more blanced between the feet rather than more weight going onto the right side on the back swing. on the downswing you do shift some weight to your left side but i do think this happens unconsciously as a resulf of a hip shift but again that happens without thinking.
with the Mindy Blake system you set up and once set you swing but you dont think about any part of the swing it all just happens by reflex to your set up.
i have again posted a picture of Richard Wax so you might see what i mean better about Mindy's set up and reflex swing if you look at Richard in fram 4 and 5 and Hogan in the two pictures you sent in there are a few things that look the same but both are very diffrent swings.
that last time i spoke to Richard he was 65 years old and playing off 5 handicap.
cheers
bill

What a marvelous couple of pictures of Hogan these are. I see this almost every day as I have the DVD this footage is taken from.

Both these pictures show perfectly what Go Low is talking about. Hogan was right handed, and like all those who are right handed, our most powerful and responsive upper limb is our right arm.

You can see how deep into the downswing Hogan has retained his elbow angle. You'll also see that his right elbow has basically taken the place of where his right hip was. This swing is all about right arm control and power. And this swing (once it was as close to perfect as the man could make it) was and still is the most accurate and repeatable swing there has ever been. He was virtually unbeatable after his car accident. And he gave Sam Snead a Texan ass whippin at Houston in 1963 too. Didn't miss a fairway, didn't miss a green, one bogey and four birdies.

He used this identical action for all clubs. And it's all designed to give him maximum firepower and control from his most dominant limb. His weight shift and turn are designed to allow him to use his right arm hard. It's a shame he couldn't seem to communicate his swing better to the masses. The most famous of golfing contrdictions in my eyes is that "the hands go along for the ride" but at the same time he wished he had 3 right hands/arms for power.

What interests me is that he figured it out pretty much all of his own doing. OK he will have had stuff to refer to like we all have now, but nobody can claim to have accomplished anything like Ben Hogan for such a wonderful marriage between power and accuracy. Sure, he wasn't the longest, but many players of yesteryear will confirm that he was long as well as accurate. A deadly combination. I'm presuming from this, to put it into a context we can all relate to, is that he was Tiger Woods long, rather than Bubba Watson long, but with 'better than Trevino' accuracy. But then I guess you don't need to be ultra long if you're accurate with every stick in the bag.

It is testimony that really looking at what's going on and having the courage to discard some of what the "authorities" say and try something different, along with bags of determination, can pay huge dividends.

Based on all this, why anyone wouldn't use Hogan as a model is beyond me. Although "do as I do, not as I say" surely (unfortunately) applies.

[golfndawg]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Hey GL

I thought you were going to start a thread on the upper body, or right side,something like that.

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

[quote=Go Low;10553675]The right forearm will match the angle of your spine.
quote]

Hey Go Low,

Do you not mean that the right upper arm would match the spine angle from down-the-line? With essentially the right forearm pointing straight back toward the camera from the down-the-line view? Maybe you meant that the right forearm would be in line with the outside line of the back/torso when parallel to the ground?

It's amazing how "narrow" the backswing feels when done this way in comparison to the wider takeaway advocated by many.

In my view, your width is your width. As you state, any attempt to force a wide arc on the way back only detaches your arms from your turn and results in rolling the wrists to try to stay "on plane" when the right elbow doesn't bend. I think it's why so many people struggle with a laid off shaft going back.

[GoNavy]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Here are some pics of Aaron Bradley, red line is spine angle, second pic shows yellow line added matching spine angle. For you angle type guys, you will also notice the left arm matches the shaft angle at address.