Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

[redsox]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I do not post often, but I have studied the golf swing for over 30 years. Go Low makes more sense that any of the lessons form top instructors that I have had. One thing that really helped was simply using my left arm and shoulder connection more on the down swing(I am left handed). I was always taught this was a front arm game- don't use your back arm. This is completely wrong. I use a weaker front hand grip, with a stronger back hand grip. This makes me force my left side thru the ball. Many other things also that I will post later.

[redsox]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Great post Go Low. That would mean you would also be trying to swing the handle as fast. Hopefully this would mean you would have a forward leaning shaft at impact, where as if you tried to swing the club head fast, you would have no chance of compression. This is where the power comes.Thanks

[bdbl]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Is this stuff helping anyone? Does anyone find it interesting? Does it have any value to anyone. Is it worthwhile?

Let's see. 4 Questions. 4 Answers then. And a "but".

Don't know. Yes. Yes. Yes.

But.

For all that you are clearly knowledgeable and skilled I have to say that, from where I sit, you can be a little dogmatic, a trait that detracts (imo) from your posts.

For instance, since I picked up on Leslie King and The Swing Factory my golf has steadily improved yet King's swing is, as far as I understand it, not only under the control of the left / leading hand / arm but he advocates that you should be square or "better, fractionally closed" at impact.

I assume, from the way way you advocate the right arm, you would say he was wrong. No arguments, no ifs or buts.

Me. I'm not sure that there is any 100% right way of playing this game - but I do enjoy reading your posts, so please take these comments in the friendly spirit in which they are intended.

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Is this stuff helping anyone? Does anyone find it interesting? Does it have any value to anyone. Is it worthwhile?

You seem to have good intentions and a lot of knowledge. I would suggest that your posts are lengthy and you would get your message over better if you could be more concise. You are also very terse with any conflicting opinions and dismiss them out-of-hand as wrong, consider these words from Max Ehrmann:

"As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself."

____________________________________

I agree with much of what you have written and have some concerns with your inflexibility but overall believe you can be a great asset to this site.

Well done and please keep it simple my friend.

[golfndawg]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Brian - I am trying to be concise - that is one reason for the length of some posts. Unless there is a full explanation of what to do, as well as why you should do it...many people will not understand it fully. Throw in a few analogies and the post length grows. When people ask questions or want confirmation, it grows lengthier still. Also, I have found that when explaining the golf swing certain things need to be repeated, and the more confusing or important they are - they need to be discussed at length. Maybe you just don't like to read...

My apologies for sounding very terse with any conflicting opinions. However, the truth of the matter is - the few conflicting opinions have been incorrect...and I have said so and explained (as concisely as possible) why they are incorrect. It's rather difficult to remain absolutely charming when debating and explaining detail matters in writing. Also, true personalities do not always come out in the written word as they do the spoken voice...

---------------------------

I'm curious to know your opinion Brian (or anyone's opinion) about the following statements:

Statement #1:

THE GOLF ACTION IS BASED UPON A FREE SWING OF THE HANDS AND ARMS INDEPENDENT OF THE BODY. The body in fact has nothing to do with propelling (cause the movement of) the hands and arms at any time. A correct swing is based upon a free swing of the hands and arms. A bad swing is based upon body propulsion - an action in which the hands and arms are set in motion by body movement.

Statement #2:

Hogan stressed the importance of beginning the forward swing with an unwinding motion of the hips. Ben Hogan does nothing actively with his hands/arms/club - he simply allows them to respond reactively/passively to the rotational movement of the lower body.

Statement #3

The Rotary Swing's main goal from the top of the backswing is simple to "unwind". There is no jumping or thrusting, simply an unwinding of the torso while maintaining the spine angle established at address.

Which statement is correct?

Let me be the first to answer the question...with a very terse answer!

ALL THREE STATEMENTS ARE WRONG!

That move of Hogan on the right is the one that has gotten me into alot of trouble (shanking-leading with the hosel,underplane etc....It does not look right to me (especially the right elbow) and looks like he's come out of his posture..I know it's a drawing and I do have the book but I don't believe it's for me......Right elbow is a big deal for me(my swing) for staying on plane or not.I was under the impression that for an on plane (1 plane)swing the right elbow does not get in front of the body like the picture shows.Pictures of misleading things or maybe I just don't understand anything anymore.

Anyway, keep posting, I may not join in all the time but doesn't mean I'm not lurking around the corner.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
i have to say i do just what Hogan says in your clip. i drop my right elbow so its just in front of my right hip as i slid my left hip and my left leg more to the target and then start to turn.
i know i swing so different to Brian and i have much more body movement but i do swing like the clip up sent in to Brian. the only real difference is i push the ball like Trevino and done swing back around like hogan.
i find it very easy to swing like that and i can honestly say i don't have any swing problems and can repeat the swing with ease and that swing gives me a high fade that i can control. to increase and decrease the fade all i do it adjust how open my stance in and how closed my club face is.
when i set up my club face is closed and not open, my feet line about 40degrees open and the club face is about 15 to 10 degrees closed depending on how much i want the ball to turn in the air.
my hips do start the downswing and i sometimes feel my hips start the downswing when my hands are still swinging back.
when i did first start learning the Trevino system in the 70s i did have to think of moving my hips first but like you said it happens without me thinking about it now.
also the arms act in reflex, i don't try to swing my arms down it just happens. i don't think about it at all.
when i have set up i don't really have any thoughts about my swing i just let it happen but the things that make it work for me is my hips slid and turn and my right elbow dropping in front of my hip bone. if that happens i swing good.
when learning getting the hips slid and the elbow to drop were the things i really had to work on and also getting into pushing the hands away through impact and not letting then swing back around till the club head was about waist high.
i found Hogans book did work for me and the example you gave about the hips and rubber band did work for me as did keeping the elbows pulled together at the start of the back swing but i don't ever think of that now.
i did think what Hogan said in his book does work for some people as it did for me but i know i have a strange swing to most people but it works and works well.
maybe your right in its wrong for the masses but i don't think it was wrong for me and i do go back to Hogan book a lot just to refresh in my head the things i am doing. the grip in his book helped me lots and also how he explained the two planes, it fitted in with Trevino book swing my way.
a lot of what Hogan says, Trevino says and Mindy Blake also seemed to go along with the reflex swing in a bigger way but most of comes back to Trevino and hogan.


cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go low
yes Trevino did set up with his club face closed and did swing back on the outside and came back on the inside.
i found it easer to swing back straight and not on the outside as that worked better for me.
also i use to play of 4 handicap and it was only after an accident and damage to my spine that stopped me playing for over 3 years. i have been back playing about 18 months now and I'm down to 12 handicap and think i should get to about 10 before the end of the year.
i don't practice due to problems with my back so it a turn up and play for me most of the time and i find that works well for me.
if you read Trevino's book you will he has taken a number of things from Hogan in his swing and did try and copy hogan and get a fade.
one of the things i took from Blake was the right leg set up and the use of reflex arms and not use Trevino's power left arm as i don't think i was even thinking of the power of the left arm when swinging any more a bit like you said.
i find the the arms swing down by them selfs and you don't have to start them as it just happens just like Mindy Blake says in his books.
i feel i am setting up like Trevino and the only difference is i set my right leg and don't try and power down my left arm, everything else works the same.
yes your right i do need to work more on my short game and it costing me shots and also i play a lot of links golf and the bunkers do cost you shots unlike inland golf but sadly i cant risk spending to much time practicing due to the damage to my spine and i have to watch as to how much golf a play so not to put my back into spasm so it a balance of how much golf i can play.
i am lucky i can play at all as i did think for years i would never be able to play again.
i will never get down to 4 handicap again as then i had to practice two or three nights a week and then play on a Saturday and Sunday just to keep a 4 handicap.
now i try and play about 35 rounds a year with no practice at all.
i also use a broomhandled putter so i don't need to bend over a putt
I'm 55 and hope to keep playing around the standard for another 10 years or so.
i do want to play better but i am unfortunate in my spine had damage that stops me playing as much as i want too.
i appreciate you did not know of my back problems as most others on here do.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
if you have played with Lee then you know he starts his swing with the kick of his left knee and that starts his hip slid and then his arms.
i have seen Trevino win his two opens and followed him all 4 days at Muirfiled as it just up the road from me.
i have also seem him many times over the years in the open and also seem him in the Marley trophy at Gleneagles about a dozen times so in all i have watched him live about 40 times in all, i was at his clinics in 1979 and 1980 and he talked about his swing and explained it to the people there how and why it worked.
i have met him twice, i do think i understand his swing as good as anyone as i have been using it since 1978.
as to my Pathetic golf game. i played Gullane 2, three weeks ago and shot 78 that is 7 over par and it a very hard links course and a good test of golf i have also shot 81 at muirfeild many years ago and would of done better if i had been better out of sand at that time, if you had ever played with me or even watched me i don't think you would put down my game the way you have.
to say someone game is pathetic without ever seeing them of knowing the facts of there game or the quality of the course they play is wrong and shows poor judgment on your part.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go low
i have not updated my handicap on here as I'm hoping after the last 4 cards i have put in it will drop even lower than the 12 i am on at the moment and the other thing is the bunkers here in Scotland are fretted and about 6 feet deep and in you get in them it cost you a shot to get out. often you have to play out side ways or backwords. the bunkers are so deep as the wind blows the sand out otherwise. also on links courses the wind blows and a lot of the time it blows very hard and you can lose you a couple of shots due to the wind.
my short game is not so good just now but i would not say it was pathetic. the rough is deep here and i often have to play out using a 7 at most but if my back was sound i might manage to power out a 5 iron or a wood. if i land in the rough it cost me so i try hard not to with my drives. in a round i miss the fairway maybe 2 times in a round. sometimes the ball don't turn as much and other times it runs more and goes off on the right side fairway.
i would say i was playing of about 10 at the moment.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
yes i agree were getting of the topic.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Bill - I did not intend to offend you. Please allow me to explain why I deduced that your short game must be pathetic. Here were the facts you (not me) presented... First, your profile says that you are a 14 handicap golfer. Then you claim by saying, that you can honestly say i don't have any swing problems and can repeat the swing with ease. These facts (you offered) tell me that you are scoring 14-18 strokes over the course rating! Therefore "if" you can honestly say that you don't have any swing problems - then guess what? The majority of those 14-18 strokes you are over par MUST be coming from a very inadequate or pathetic short game! It certainly is not coming from your long game because you don't have any problems with it. Right? There is NO other way to look at it. Don't you agree? I only went by the information that YOU offered.

If I may make a suggestion! "Pathetic" is a rather harsh and derogatory term. "I think you may have a problem with your short game" would be more apt.

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Brian, maybe you are an overly sensitive person. It sounds like it!

If Bill and I had played together and his long game was good (as he said it was), but he shot 14 over par - I would have told Bill to his face that his short game was pathetic. And I think he would have (had to) agreed with me.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to cater to your little whims...

Not sensitive at all, polite conversation just happens to be a little whim of mine.

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I think you're a little bit more sensitive than most...

I believe my written exchange here is very amiable. Maybe you aren't accustomed to being around people with opinions that aren't shy about saying what they think...of course as long as feelings aren't hurt. And surely what I said didn't hurt his feelings...at least I certainly hope it didn't! I just don't sugar-coat things as if I'm having a conversation with a timid or easily-upset person. As I told you once before, I am not going to cater to your little whims. So get over it!

This is what he said, make your own mind up whether you offended him:

"to say someone game is pathetic without ever seeing them of knowing the facts of there game or the quality of the course they play is wrong and shows poor judgment on your part."


You seem a bit ruder than most! Just keep taking the pills mate.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi
go low
yes i was offended by your remarks but like you said you did not understand my circumcises and made up your own judgment without knowing all the facts.
i think youe choice of word was wrong but i beleve it was not ment as an insult but based on what you knew.
as we said i think we are well off the thread now and should move on.
only to add Brain has been a major contrebuter on this site and has always been helpful and surportive to all leavels of golfer.
"cater to his little whims." is not a good choice of words as we are all here to help each other and i do enjoy your imput very much but we all have our own opinions and the same belive that sometimes we are also right and want to stick up for what we belive is true.
please keep it frendly so it helps all of us and not ofend the odd one or two of us.
thanks very much
bill

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I think you're a little bit more sensitive than most...

I believe my written exchange here is very amiable. Maybe you aren't accustomed to being around people with opinions that aren't shy about saying what they think...of course as long as feelings aren't hurt. And surely what I said didn't hurt his feelings...at least I certainly hope it didn't! I just don't sugar-coat things as if I'm having a conversation with a timid or easily-upset person. As I told you once before, I am not going to cater to your little whims. So get over it!

Go Low,

What are you doing?

You have some fabulous stuff to say on the golf swing and I agree with almost everything you say, but you're gonna rapidly turn people off your posts by being - as you describe it - amiable but truthful. Trust me when I say that there is nothing amiable about telling people to "get over it" or saying that any part of anything that makes a person up is "pathetic". And to suggest that someone who regularly partakes in discussions on a forum he has chosen to join doesn't like to read, is not the most intelligent thing you've ever written.

As further education, in this instance I would tell you that your interpersonal skills require attention as you may risk continually offending people which I'm sure any human being wouldn't wish to intentionally do. If you were telling me the same thing, you may write something like "stop being such an A-hole".

Do you see the difference? If you wish people to accept what you say as gospel (which is how it comes across) then you must surely appreciate the need for other people to simply see some common courtesy during discussions. If you expect others to see something when you cannot see what others expect, then you'll come unstuck.

I'm sure you remember a certain someone who was recently removed from the boards here and your style is rapidly turning into a mimic of said removed poster.

There's not one person on here that doesn't have something interesting to say about the golf swing. Why is it interesting? Precisely because it is their point of view. Golf's more about the people than the swings.

I appreciate that you advocate a certain way of swinging. In my own mind, I do too. I've swung the club many different ways and am coming to the conclusion that Hogans way is the best. For me.

I also appreciate that the quality of coaching of the game can be poor, and the quality of advice can also be poor given the occasions when the advice does not match the intended method of swinging, and that every person out there could take it upon themselves to start soliciting the advice that they believe is correct. But guess what? there will be a portion of people that think that advice is wrong too! You seem to be missing the way of the world.

Learn to recognise the difference. There are people on here that agree with your views on the swing (me included) and there are people that do not. Those that do say so, those that do not also say so and describe why because the don't swing like you. It's their prerogative and right to do so.

Phrases that you may wish to add to your vocabulary (and I'm sure you can as you can communicate well) are:

• I appreciate what you're saying and understand it but..........
• I've thought of it like that before and came to the conclusion that....
• We clearly swing it differently and I'll accept those differences, yet I shall continue to talk about my own theories........

Perfectly amiable. You may call it sugar coated. The rest of us call it appreciation of others and civilised communication.

As you correctly noted earlier, the written word can quite often be misenterpreted. If you understand that, then surely you must understand the need to almost go out of ones way in forums like this to ensure that we are not misunderstood, as you do with your descriptions of the golf swing.

I hope you can take this into account during future discussions.