Great tip for draw/fade.

[gatorguy146]

I met with a college golf coach today at a driving range and he told me one of the smartest things I've heard regarding draws and fades. I've never really had a lesson, so that might be why I've never heard this but he said it's all about where your chest points at impact. If your chest is behind the ball it will draw, if it's pointing in front of the ball it will fade. He said that Boo Weekly was a perfect example because his chest is right on the ball at impact.

Just thought I'd share it with all of you guys, hopefully it helps your game.

[LowPost42]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

I've gotta agree with Go Low. If my chest is square, it means I've stopped rotating and have to use my hands and arms to save the shot. I prefer to be open at impact.

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

I think the shoulders are the rudder of the swing and will set the balls initial direction. If you want a straight ball flight then set them square to target, a draw set them closed, a fade open.

Here are some articles to support square shoulders.

http://www.ritson-sole.com/golf-tips...t-it-straight/

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio.../annika_gd0705

http://www.golflink.com/tipsvideos/tip.asp?t=46434

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instructi...of-impact.html

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Once again Brian - the so-called experts (including the professional players) are giving incorrect information! They often give totally incorrect or contradictory information, which they [themselves] do not do.

You may want to take a look at these pictures...and see if you think they have their shoulders square at impact.

Is it any wonder (with all the abundance of WRONG advice, tips, information, instruction, articles and teaching methods from professional teachers, tour players, golf magazines, and books) why golfers are so damn confused?

Still not convinced:

Many of those pictures are in the post impact position, Tigers are square although he has a crazy hip turn which must be bad for his back.

In my rotary swing I keep my arms in the middle of my chest and swing around my body, this makes me want my shoulders square as I come into the ball. OK, with the driver where the ball is played further forward they may be very slightly open.

[bill reed]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

hi
i think one other important point is the bent right elbow and the still cupped right wrist. have the right elbow still bent and the right wrist cupped mean the right shoulder had to dip and you cant have the shoulders parallel to the target line when your set up like this at impact.
the right elbow also had to lead the right hips as you come into impact zone and that means turning the hips and shifting the weight to the left side.
if you had the shoulders parallel to the target at impact then you would also have to have both arms fully extended at impact and not a few inches after impact like almost all the pro golfers do.
i can see you setting up with your shoulders parallel but on the downswing there are still open at impact.
cheers
bill

[gatorguy146]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Look at the picture of tiger whoever posted, his shoulders are pointing right at the ball, he chest is infront because he is unbelievably flexible, and has the timing down and the flexibility to pull that off. Most golfers not on tour can't pull that move off. Basically what the guy told me was a way to correct a fade/slice. It's just something you can think about, if you actually go to the range and try this before criticizing my post you'd see that it actually does work.

Ofcourse you still want to rotate through the ball that was a point that he made to me as we tried this, if you don't rotate u have no shot which is obvious to anyone, it's all about timing.

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

The best of luck to you Brian!

Go Low,

Please don't say that, I am trying to debate the subject not score points. I don't require luck to make my point and fully respect the fact that you may not agree.

I still think that most pictures presented in this subject are in the Peri-impact position so do not represent impact.

The pictures of Tiger show his shoulders almost square at impact and he states in his book "Golf My Way" that he keeps his arms in front of his chest in the swing and only allows his shoulders to get very slightly open at impact, otherwise he gets ahead of his arms and pushes the ball.

The fact that the trail shoulder is rotating under it is possible for you to be in a slightly open position but not wide open. I have a great respect for Greg Willis but I see his right hand drill as a "Drill" and not a way to build a swing, I would not suggest that golfers should have their shoulders facing the target at impact, this could create many problems. I don't believe Greg is suggesting this, he is IMO drilling you to keep the left wrist flat and the right cupped.

Your picture is showing Peri-impact and the shoulders are hardly open

This article from Mel Sole who IMO is a very good coach supports the principle:

"THE CLUBHEAD WILL ALWAYS TRAVEL IN THE DIRECTION OF THE SHOULDERS

(4. Impact, shoulders square.)

Once the club has reached the impact position, the shoulders should still be “square” and only after impact do the shoulders rotate out of the way."

Lets not confuse the average golfer by suggesting they should be ahead of their arms in the downswing, that would be a recipe for pushes with the better player and push slices with the novice.

[bill reed]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

hi Brian
i have to disagree with the article of Mel Sole where he says :-the club head will ALWAYS travel in the direction of the shoulders.

that is not a true statement as you only have to look at Lee Trevino or Fred Couples and you will see that both plays play a push shot and the club head is moving in a different line to the shoulders. the hands are swinging away from the body in a push shot and not swing back around to well after impact and maybe as much as 18 inches after. Arny Palmer also had a club head that did not follow his shoulders through impact and after.
i think many player do follow the shoulders with the club head but not ALWAYS.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

hi Brian
i have to disagree with the article of Mel Sole where he says :-the club head will ALWAYS travel in the direction of the shoulders.

that is not a true statement as you only have to look at Lee Trevino or Fred Couples and you will see that both plays play a push shot and the club head is moving in a different line to the shoulders. the hands are swinging away from the body in a push shot and not swing back around to well after impact and maybe as much as 18 inches after. Arny Palmer also had a club head that did not follow his shoulders through impact and after.
i think many player do follow the shoulders with the club head but not ALWAYS.
cheers
bill

Bill,
A typical push shot is not caused by swing path but clubface. The ball will travel between the direction of the swing path and the clubface but biased more towards clubface.

I am not referring to specialist players that have developed specialised shot making, I am referring to the average Joe who wants to play golf. If you swing with the clubface square to the swing path as you would recommend any new player to do then the arms will naturally swing in the direction of the shoulders. That's what they are designed to do.

I know you follow the Trevino swing Bill and that's great if it suits you but it is not a platform for the masses.

[bill reed]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

hi Brian
i was referring more to his use of the word "ALWAYS" and trying to point out that that is untrue and its not "ALWAYS" but should maybe be in "most".
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Go Low

I refer to the shoulders because they are attached to the chest and tend to rotate as a unit, if the chest is open so will be the shoulders.

I used the term "Wide Open" as I believed at the time your post showing Greg Willis, Sam Snead, Ben hogan and Tiger Woods was suggesting the way they were in the pictures was also the way you are recommending the shoulders and chest be at impact. I can see now that that is not exactly what you said but it can still be seen as the implication.

I am not coming round to recommending that golfers should hold an image of their chests/shoulders being open at impact, I think they should feel as if their arms, chest and shoulders return square. I am fully aware that there will always be acceptable tolerances with such moves, they may be 15% open or 15% closed but to me this is still acceptable to the term "square to target". It's like someone saying a picture is hanging square and someone else saying it's not as it's 2 deg out.

An out to in swing is often created by the shoulders/chest being open and an in to out by them being held closed. It is also very possible for the hips and chest to point in different directions, just look again at the picture of Tiger.

I am not attempting to slight your beliefs, I am only stating mine. I have found your postings in general very good and helpful to people. I have supported many of your theories but in this case we differ, that's OK though. I would conclude this post by saying that the swing thought of returning the triangle of the shoulders, chest and arms square to the ball at impact is a good one even if the actual position may be slightly out of square.

[Neil18]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Just a small observation that may or may nor have any relevance here.

If we are to return our chest to square at impact, would it not be impossible to have forward shaft lean and good ball compression at impact? The chest must surely open by the same relative amount that the clubhead lags behind the hands, must it not? Otherwise it's impossible to physically get the hands infront of the ball at impact.

If a player wishes to hit the ball returning the chest to square, then biology and physics must dictate that the hands and clubhead will straighten (from face on) in order to meet the ball. Surely this leads to a flippy action, or a rediculous amount of hard body turn in order to get any power into the shot?

Of all the professional examples I've seen, Hogan had the most open chest through impact. And he's at the top of most peoples "quality ball striking" list. The compression he got on the ball was rediculous, by all accounts, even to the extent that people say his impact sounded more authorititive than anyone elses. And it's not conincidence that he had the best striking and also the most open shoulders and consequently the most lag. They all compliment each other.

As a supporting point; it is possible (and necessary in a good golf swing) for the shoulders to turn slightly independent of the chest. The shoulders are fully capable of operating independently of the rig cage. It is not one solid unit. So to me (to clarify the point), hips are most open at impact, chest is less open than hips, shoulders are almost square, but still slightly open.

To expand a little of the above re shoulders and chest, the chest must and can only turn around the spine, but the shoulders can and do turn in a more vertical plane that the chest. In my view, too closely associating the shoulder girdle with the rib cage leads to a lot to OTT swings.

[bill reed]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

hi Neil
i think you make a good point about the shoulders and how the right shoulder dips as you come into impact and there is some lag in the club head.
if you look at most top players the right shoulder dips more on the downswing that the left shoulder did on the back swing and this is a clear indication of a different swing plane on the backswing to the plane of the downswing.
i often check my aliment when on the tee but swinging back to hip high and then swing back to the ball slowly but moving my hips and legs to the impact position and checking my aliment of my hands and the club face.
when i do this my hips have moved forward and face the target line more than face the ball. my shoulders are also open and my right shoulder has dipped and my right elbow is still bent.
how i end up in the impact position is nothing like how i set up to the ball. you set up you have a nice "V" with the arms and both are almost fully extended but at impact you are a good 6 inches past the ball before your arms get into that "V" position again and at impact your right elbow is still bent a little and your right wrist cupped a little too and this is not how you are at set up.
i do think that some teachers teach you to try and get back to the set up posision as impact but i think this is very wrong and no top golfer does this.
i also think it can be confusing looking at pictures of top golfers swinging as the never tell you what kink of shot there hitting, are they setting up to fade or draw or to hit a low cutter.
its easer with Hogan and Trevino as both used a fade 99% of the time and always are open more than most other players.
with Tiger he hits a draw most but hits a fade a lot too so unless you know the shot he hits its hard to work out if he swings open or almost square.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Neil - Once again you have shown your keen knowledge and understanding of a good golf swing!

I think we have the same hymn sheet Go Low.

Additionally, the "new" way of setting up to the ball with your ass sticking out and shoulder back doesn't allow the body to work in it's optimum way. Bum in, shoulders forward and relaxed I say! Curved upper back, straight lower back. If anyone can find a picture of Snead at address, it's perfect, and very different from modern golfiers.

[BrianW]

Re: Great tip for draw/fade.

Go Low / Neil

Thank you for the reply and overview of your beliefs and experiences. I do not hold myself out as a golf guru but have managed to play golf to a fair competitive level and although scratch golf has been just outside my grasp it has been close at times.

I have explained that I use a rotary single plane swing and must still repeat that facing the ball at impact and maintaining my arms in front of my chest through the swing is an important concept to me. You may if you wish categorise that as a poor golf swing and you are of course completely free to state your beliefs and no doubt they have some merit.

Neil mentions Hogan as the best ball striker and that he had the most open chest at impact and that this is a necessity to create good ball contact and compression. I would put forward Moe Norman as one if not the best ball strikers and Moe explained that he faced the ball at impact. I have studied Moe's swing and learned a great deal from it particularly in it's simplicity and the way he swung with his arms and kept the lower body quiet so that it reacted in support to his upper body. Facing the ball was something his swing was founded on.

Please take a look at this page http://moenormangolfacademy.org/inst...latimpact.aspx

I have also studied Nick Bradley's teachings which are based on a one plane swing, Nick coaches Justin Rose and on his site (attached) he explains on how he likes to keep his arms in front of his body at impact.

http://www.justinrose.com/swing.asp

I can see there is little point in me continuing this thread as I cannot debate a subject when the implication is that my theories are completely wrong and that anyone that swings a club like me must be a poor golfer or someone who is stunting the progress of aspiring novices. I have shown many professional opinions that agree but they have been dismissed as delusional.

I fully expect another lengthy castigation but alas I bow out bloodied but not beaten.