your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Bill,

I don't think of Lee Trevino "steering" the club - simply because he didn't roll the right hand over the left hand through impact. Homer Kelley used the term "steering" to refer to motions that attempt to get the clubhead, and/or clubface, to move in a straight line direction.

Varying the degree of clubface roll-over post-impact falls into the category of hinging actions, and not "steering" actions. Lee Trevino used angled hinging, where there is no roll-over action of the left hand post-impact. I can see no definite "steering" action in Lee Trevino's swing - where he tries to cause the clubhead/clubface to travel in a straight line direction through impact.

Jeff.

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

hi Jeff
i don't know what you mean when you say Trevino had angle hinging.
could you explain that a little more so i understand. do you mean that angle hinging is little or no left wrist cupping or bowing.
Trevino left wrist was in line with his four arm through his back swing and his downswing. no bending or cupping. i do agree that Trevino though the power was i his left arm and the right hand was more of a guide hand but i know you do get some power from the right hand too.
Trevino at his clinics often hit the ball with just his left hand to show that his right only added a few yard to his distance and he also hit the ball almost as far with his Dr. Pepper bottles as he did with his clubs and could even get a fade from the Dr. Pepper bottle.
thanks
Bill

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Bill,

The left wrist should always remain flat during the downswing and followthrough.

Hinging actions apply to the followthrough only. In horizontal hinging, the flat left wrist must remain vertical to the ground while the clubshaft moves along the surface of the inclined plane. In angled hinging, the flat left wrist must remain vertical to the inclined plane while the clubshaft moves along the surface of the inclined plane.

I described the difference in great detail in my impact chapter - in the followthrough section.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm

Jeff.

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Hi Jeff
I'll read it again.
thanks
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian

I have changed my thinking a lot since reading the TGM book.

For instance, I don't believe that one should try and keep the clubface square for longer. In Homer Kelley's world that represents "steering" and he states that a golfer should never steer the club. The clubhead arc has to be perfectly circular and there should be no time point in the clubhead arc where the clubhead travels "straighter". He also stated that the clubface has a certain rate of clubface closure through impact, which is controllable by the left hand - via the mechanism of hinging actions. The natural hinging action for a swinger is a horizontal hinging action. During a horizontal hinging action, the left wrist remains flat and vertical as it rotates to the left. A horizontal hinging action requires a small degree of left hand roll-over action post-impact. That can be seen in this next photo of Ernie Els.Jeff.

Jeff,

I dont suggest that one steers the club, that's a different concept and tends to be where the club is kept along the target path too long instead of swinging around.

I have tried to explain that I do not disagree with keeping a cupped left wrist or turning over the forearms, I am saying that it is possible to use the method promoted by Nick Bradley, Trevor Immelman, Moe Norman and One plane swingers as well. I understand that you are a strong supporter of TGM, personally I find the book and instruction over complex and not suitable for most recreational golfers.

I would like to leave this debate on this note now as it seems that I am not able to explain my point effectively and the matter is becoming confused.

[jambalaya]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

TGM obviously works for some people. The people at the iseekgolf forum are advocates I think. I read a lot of information there about TGM but it just confused me. All the talk levers and accumulators just didn't work with my short attention span.

[rotator]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

I was informed that the link for the Martin Hall videos did not open.

I truly believe it is very good stuff, presented well by an excellent instructor, and worth watching. Informative, and very entertaining as well.

Try this.

Open the you tube home page. Search for "Martin Hall golfer". This will make it distinct from a musician, I believe, with the same name. There should be the two clips.

Ted

[kbp]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

The power and speed does not come solely from the unhinging action, most of it is produced as the clubface is rotated from an open position to a closed one. In an effective swing the wrists and forearms will have opened in the back swing so that at the halfway down position the wrists are still rotated open, in the follow through where the club is pointing towards the target the wrists and forearms will have rotated to an extent that they have turned over around 90 deg. It is this rotation of the clubface from open to closed through impact along with a body turn that creates the desired clubhead speed.

Brian, perhaps I misunderstand the actions you’re referring to, but I believe you come from an engineering background, so you should see that this cannot be true, strictly as a matter of physics. The majority of the speed/momentum is not due to clubhead rotation from open to closed, in comparison to the release of the wrist hinge. From a waist high position to impact, compare the two actions. The release of the wrist hinge has the mass of the clubhead rotating about the axis of the wrist on a radius about as long as the shaft, say 38" for a five iron, through an angle of about 90 degrees. During the same approximate time period your clubhead open to closed rotation occurs about the axis of the shaft on a very small radius, maybe 2". Considering that both action have approximately the same angular velocity (both go through 90 degrees of rotation in about the same amount of time, waist high to impact), and considering the mass is the same for both actions (actually slightly higher for the wrist release because the weight of the shaft contributes), the one that has the mass rotating on a larger radius is going to provide more instantaneous linear momentum and velocity at impact. In this very simplified example, about 17 times as much.

Or consider by experimentation. Place the clubhead behind the ball. Open the face 90 degrees by rotating the shaft about it’s axis. Twist it back to square, as fast as you can, and slap the back of the ball. Now take the club to waist high, toe up and then leaving the face wide open, hit the back of the ball with the hossel of the club using no clubhead rotation. Which one moves the ball farther?

I’m not discounting that the open/close action is important. It can BLOCK speed and make for poor leverage if it is not executed effectively, but IMO the rotation of the mass of the clubhead, in and of itself, adds a relatively small amount of speed/power.

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian, perhaps I misunderstand the actions you’re referring to, but I believe you come from an engineering background, so you should see that this cannot be true, strictly as a matter of physics. The majority of the speed/momentum is not due to clubhead rotation from open to closed, in comparison to the release of the wrist hinge. From a waist high position to impact, compare the two actions. The release of the wrist hinge has the mass of the clubhead rotating about the axis of the wrist on a radius about as long as the shaft, say 38" for a five iron, through an angle of about 90 degrees. During the same approximate time period your clubhead open to closed rotation occurs about the axis of the shaft on a very small radius, maybe 2". Considering that both action have approximately the same angular velocity (both go through 90 degrees of rotation in about the same amount of time, waist high to impact), and considering the mass is the same for both actions (actually slightly higher for the wrist release because the weight of the shaft contributes), the one that has the mass rotating on a larger radius is going to provide more instantaneous linear momentum and velocity at impact. In this very simplified example, about 17 times as much.

Or consider by experimentation. Place the clubhead behind the ball. Open the face 90 degrees by rotating the shaft about it’s axis. Twist it back to square, as fast as you can, and slap the back of the ball. Now take the club to waist high, toe up and then leaving the face wide open, hit the back of the ball with the hossel of the club using no clubhead rotation. Which one moves the ball farther?

I’m not discounting that the open/close action is important. It can BLOCK speed and make for poor leverage if it is not executed effectively, but IMO the rotation of the mass of the clubhead, in and of itself, adds a relatively small amount of speed/power.

I showed three videos from David Blair earlier in this post. He explains clearly the basics of good ball striking and clubhead speed as the club moves from the half downswing position to the half follow through and how by using the forearms and wrists good ball striking is achieved. The subject became complicated when Jeff suggested that there was really only one way to manipulate the club at impact, I suggested this was not so and in fact it was possible to create suitable ball striking in various ways.

I have previously mentioned this and I think my posts have been misinterpreted either by my poor explanation or people not looking at all the information I have given.

I am re-submitting this video link that shows the action of the clubhead moving from open to closed again:

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/v...lding-A-Swing/

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

hi Brian
i have always liked David Blair and his common sense approach to the golf swing. i also thing he is good at explaining it too.
cheers
Bill

[kbp]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

I showed three videos from David Blair earlier in this post. He explains clearly the basics of good ball striking and clubhead speed as the club moves from the half downswing position to the half follow through and how by using the forearms and wrists good ball striking is achieved. The subject became complicated when Jeff suggested that there was really only one way to manipulate the club at impact, I suggested this was not so and in fact it was possible to create suitable ball striking in various ways.

I have previously mentioned this and I think my posts have been misinterpreted either by my poor explanation or people not looking at all the information I have given.

I am re-submitting this video link that shows the action of the clubhead moving from open to closed again:

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/v...lding-A-Swing/

Yes, the clubhead should open and close. It is a necessary byproduct of proper body movement and efficient swing mechanics. The action should not be blocked, nor should we intentionally manipulate the club to apply "power" through this action. The speed is in the body rotation and in the wrist release. The clubhead rotation must occur to facilitate these actions, but in and of itself, it is not a major source of momentum at impact. Physics.

My point here is that people should be aware of what the goal is. The goal is not to manipulate and contort the swing to force the clubhead open and closed to add "power" where it doesn’t exist. The goal is to swing efficiently which will result in power from where it does exist.

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

hi kbp
what you say does apply to most golfers but not all. it you take Trevino and Couples you will see they both play a block shot and do not turn the right wrist over the left till very late in there swing.
i would say if you play a draw then what you say is spot on but if you play a fade and open the stance then you don't swing around as much but more down a line and this is really playing a blocking shot as you don't want the club face to close.
if you look at the top pro's that draw like TI and the ones that fade like Monty then you see the difference in the right hand moving over the left after impact.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Yes, the clubhead should open and close. It is a necessary byproduct of proper body movement and efficient swing mechanics. The action should not be blocked, nor should we intentionally manipulate the club to apply "power" through this action. The speed is in the body rotation and in the wrist release. The clubhead rotation must occur to facilitate these actions, but in and of itself, it is not a major source of momentum at impact. Physics.

My point here is that people should be aware of what the goal is. The goal is not to manipulate and contort the swing to force the clubhead open and closed to add "power" where it doesn’t exist. The goal is to swing efficiently which will result in power from where it does exist.

My previous posts were directed to Jeff Mann and his articles, I thought he had made statements suggesting that certain methods of swinging a golf club were wrong. I tried to point out that some excellent golfers use very differing swing styles but still hit good shots and we should not dismiss them.

Your point on passive arms and wrists is a good one but suggests that any other swing is incorrect, I disagree here. Some people need to use manipulation in their swing otherwise they cannot close the clubface, create solid contact or head speed effectively. All that really matters is how the clubface contacts the ball, how someone achieves this matters not as long as the contact is correct and can be repeated.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Bill - you wrote-: "what you say does apply to most golfers but not all. it you take Trevino and Couples you will see they both play a block shot and do not turn the right wrist over the left till very late in there swing.
i would say if you play a draw then what you say is spot on but if you play a fade and open the stance then you don't swing around as much but more down a line and this is really playing a blocking shot as you don't want the club face to close. if you look at the top pro's that draw like TI and the ones that fade like Monty then you see the difference in the right hand moving over the left after impact."

The beauty of understanding TGM is that all this becomes much more precise.

These represent my personal TGM-based explanations.

The clubface roughly rotates 180 degrees between the 3rd and 4th parallel. The first 90 degrees of rotation is the same for all golfers who are swingers - and this represents the release swivel action that causes the clubface to become square by impact. After impact, the degree of clubface roll-over varies in the followthrough phase (which ends when both arms are straight). During the followthrough phase, a horizontal hinging action produces a draw (ala TI) while an angled hinging action produces a fade (ala Trevino). After the followthrough phase, a golfer who draws performs a finish swivel action, while a golfer who fades uses a "hold-off" finish swivel action.

During the followthrough phase, the right hand should never roll-over the left hand. That should only happen in the finish phase of the swing if a golfer uses a finish swivel action. Any roll-over action never involves the wrists, but it occurs due to rotation of the arms/forearms.

In all golfers, who either draw or fade the ball, the *clubshaft should always remain on the selected inclined plane throughout the entire followthrough - and the clubshaft should never drift off-plane (towards the target).

(*see question number 7 in this impact chapter - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm - for further details)

Brian - I no longer get into arguments by claiming that there is only ONE way to perform a golf swing. I merely state my personal preferences - and explain their underlying biomechanics.

Jeff.

[kbp]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Bill - If you look at their swings, you will see that they do "open" the club, to some degree on the backswing. Maybe not to perfectly flat with the plane, as many do, but open relative to address nonetheless. Therefore, they must close the club back to square, at least. They do not have to go past square, they can hold off, but obviously it must close back at least to square. This is what I mean by open and close. How this is achieved, by body rotation or by forearm "rolling", or to what degree it occurs before or after impact, is irrelevant to the necessity of the action.

Brian - The point is not passive versus active. You can actively "square" the club with the hands, if you like, but the point is that it is not going to add significant power, the act of opening and closing the clubhead. A large potential for momentum is not available in that action due to the physics.

Thanks for the action, gentlemen.