One Plane vs Two Plane swing

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

hi Keiko
i agree you dont need to know if you have a 1 or 2 swing plane but it helps if you start haveing problems to understand "Your" swing.
i think his book explanes the diffrence between the two types of swing style and what works and don't work in each swing and are not transferable.
will it stop you being a hacker :- no
will it help you understand your swing :- yes
i like to understand other swing even if i will never use them.
i want to learn more even if its not put into my swing and the best way for me to do that is by reading.
i think there are a lot of people like me that like to read about the golf swing and its many diffrent methods.
and from that point of view "the plane truth" is not a bad book or a bad read.
if they tell you you have to swing this way or that to play good golf then that is not true but that maybe is the case in there video but not in the book i read.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

p.s when cochran and stobbs analysed the muscle elecromyograph of a professional golfer during a swing, one of the major musces involved in the downswing was the left rhomboid and left posterior deltoid. These muscles are only activated for the purposes of moving the left arm across the chest and down - think a combination of moving the left hand from level with the right shoulder down to the left hip.

Are you referring to their book 'Search for the perfect golf swing' ? I have a copy around here somewhere and thought it was originally published in something like 1969. I cant remember their being anything in it using an "elecromyograph" I also believed this technology had only progressed enough to be used reliably during the last 15 years.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

1 or 2 plane swing theory is irrevelant to playing good golf but it has made hardy and others a bunch of money.
Don't buy the snakeoil.

LOL, I think you are correct with it making them money but I guess Hogan, Faldo, Nicklaus, ET AL also made a wedge of spondulas from their books as has every successful pro golf instructor out there. Not that I think this is necessarily a bad thing.

We all know that there are many individual variations of the golf swing, this has to be as people have differing physical builds and proportions, they also have differing perceptions of what they should be and are actually doing. This holds true to just about any athletic action.

One point I am absolutely clear on though is that there are generally two golf swing models that proficient golfers use as a basis for their swings, whether they know it or not. One is the 'two plane' type where the backswing lifts the club above the shoulder plane and reroutes it back on a different path in the downswing. The other is referred to generally as the 'one plane' or 'Rotary' or 'On plane' where the club is taken back more around the body onto the shoulder plane and returned to the ball on a very similar path.

Both swings work but are different. In general The 'two plane' tends to suit the taller slimmer body type and the 'one plane' suits the broader, stronger body type. From my own experimentation I find the 'one plane' an easier swing to use and maintain as it has less manipulations and moving parts, it also suits my broad muscular frame ().

I think that anyone who is serious about developing their golf game beyond a casual game with friends should look at these swing types, seek some advice, try out the basics and settle on the one they find more suitable. This will introduce structure and consistency into their development and hopefully eradicate trial-and-error learning.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Brian, you caught me out there (although i wasnt trying to be sneaky). heres the book i was referring to

Cochran, A.
ISBN: 0203474708
Publisher: Spon Press
Pub Date: Jun 1994

I think there are loads of good points in this discussion. I agree with you brian that keeping the hands in front of the chest is a good way to go, at least as a feeling, although in my opinion (i have expressed this above) there are several players who have the hands behind the centre point in the chest, some by a long way - although behind the body can be taken in many different ways (elbows, hands, clubhead, shaft plane terms, hand plane terms etc). A teacher should always weigh up the pros and cons before suggesting this type of technique change though. The average jo who is over the top and loses lag will never be able to hit solid shots with tis type of move (im over generalising so feel free to rap my knuckles). the progression is usually a player who learns to play a draw, loves it, then realises that they need to calm it down a bit and work on the arms in front drills - which is fine.

Bill, you make a good point about reading for pleasure, and for knowledge. however i ahve to agree with keiko (maybe he will be my friend now) that hardy puts up too many 'musts' as a back out claus. Also there are so many examples of cross overs of technique that it disproves his theory. Sure a one plane would work, so would a two plane, so does a hybrid. so why bother then. tiger has been all three. he stil has the same faults.

Skywalker, im not disregarding your claim, i dont know the exact model you are looking at, perhaps you could put up a video. I would be interested to see a player that doesnt move the left arm in the swing, i cant see how it could create a hell of a lot of power - although am open to being wrong.

Anyway, being 'on plane' is largely overrated. Depends what theory you look at as to what 'plane' is exaclty. leadbetter differs to haney, haney differs to stack and tilt and natural golf etc. plane has marginal benefits to path, but there are rare occasions like hogan where they actually swing down under plane, yet divots point left and hit a fade (very rare cases)

[keiko]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hogan, faldo, nicklaus could actually play at a master's level, they didn't care about the money as they already had enough. Anyway, Hardy is not a player to any degree and certainly never to the degree of the above mentioned. He understands his theory but can't play at a master's level, does that mean anything to you?
Those who can do, those who can't teach.

LOL, I think you are correct with it making them money but I guess Hogan, Faldo, Nicklaus, ET AL also made a wedge of spondulas from their books as has every successful pro golf instructor out there. Not that I think this is necessarily a bad thing.

We all know that there are many individual variations of the golf swing, this has to be as people have differing physical builds and proportions, they also have differing perceptions of what they should be and are actually doing. This holds true to just about any athletic action.

One point I am absolutely clear on though is that there are generally two golf swing models that proficient golfers use as a basis for their swings, whether they know it or not. One is the 'two plane' type where the backswing lifts the club above the shoulder plane and reroutes it back on a different path in the downswing. The other is referred to generally as the 'one plane' or 'Rotary' or 'On plane' where the club is taken back more around the body onto the shoulder plane and returned to the ball on a very similar path.

Both swings work but are different. In general The 'two plane' tends to suit the taller slimmer body type and the 'one plane' suits the broader, stronger body type. From my own experimentation I find the 'one plane' an easier swing to use and maintain as it has less manipulations and moving parts, it also suits my broad muscular frame ().

I think that anyone who is serious about developing their golf game beyond a casual game with friends should look at these swing types, seek some advice, try out the basics and settle on the one they find more suitable. This will introduce structure and consistency into their development and hopefully eradicate trial-and-error learning.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hogan, faldo, nicklaus could actually play at a master's level, they didn't care about the money as they already had enough. Anyway, Hardy is not a player to any degree and certainly never to the degree of the above mentioned. He understands his theory but can't play at a master's level, does that mean anything to you?
Those who can do, those who can't teach.

That's not the point I am making, I am talking about the golf swing not the commercialism of golf or Hardy in particular, from my point of view Hogan was the first to develop a shoulder plane back swing.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hogan was the first to develop a shoulder plane back swing.

am i reading that clearly?

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

`

am i reading that clearly?

Hogan used the image of a plane of glass passing from the ball and over his shoulders, he kept the club under the plane of glass in the backswing, he never raised the club above his shoulder plane. I hope that clarifies.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

`

Hogan used the image of a plane of glass passing from the ball and over his shoulders, he kept the club under the plane of glass in the backswing, he never raised the club above his shoulder plane. I hope that clarifies.

Hi Brian
i think he was also one of the first golfer to talk about the downswing being of a diffrent plane and showing how that plain of glass with his head through it changes on the downswing.
i think his 5 fundementals still apply today.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hi Brian
i think he was also one of the first golfer to talk about the downswing being of a diffrent plane and showing how that plain of glass with his head through it changes on the downswing.
i think his 5 fundementals still apply today.
cheers
Bill

That's right Bill, the plane stayed over his shoulders but rotated a little towards the target in the downswing to promote a bit of an in to out swing.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

That's right Bill, the plane stayed over his shoulders but rotated a little towards the target in the downswing to promote a bit of an in to out swing.

Hi Brian
that the part of the swing Trevino copy, he watched Hogan pratice in Huston and spent months trying to copy him. he took the into out part of his swing. the "in to out" swing to give him the fade like Hogan had but he had to change his stance to get the same ball control.
cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hogan was actually out to in - hit divots pointed left and he hit a fade (in the latter part of his career when he won everything). He was still underplane though - a very rare thing to acheive both (read leadbetters book on the fundamentals of hogan) and acheived it by a very fast hip turn pre impact and what hogan would term as 'firing the right side'.

Hogans swing was full of 'compensations' to stop him hooking the ball, his five fundamentals represents that perfectly. Most of the things in the book are designed to keep the club from dropping in to out and from closing the face. most amateurs copying this are doomed for failure.

One thing i do love about hogans book is this. Hogan only had his ball flight, his divot and his notebook. He then proceeded to grind it out in the dirt until he found HIS technique. Others should follow. With an understanding of ball flight laws, and using the ball flight for analysis and divot as extra feedback people can develop their own techniques. They may find that a bowed position at the top with the wrist is more beneficial to them, or that feeling the club rotate through impact works. Bottom line is they will have earned their own technique, something all great players should strive for in my opinion

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hogan was the first to develop a shoulder plane back swing.

perhapse I should clarify my post.

you really think he was the first to develope this?

I don't even think bobby jones was the first.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

perhapse I should clarify my post.

you really think he was the first to develope this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daBxL...eature=related

I don't even think bobby jones was the first.

Who knows? He was the one that clarified it and documented it so that others could understand.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

hi
i think looking at the clip of Bobby Jones, you see just how modern his swing was and how more advanced he was with the like Vardon etc.
cheers
bill