One Plane vs Two Plane swing

[LowPost42]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

In another thread, rotator had posted a few swings - Allan Doyle's to be specific. But the Golf Channel did the top 10 ugliest swings - AD was there, so was Jim Thorpe and Jim Furyk to name a couple more (and of course the Barkley swing).


The proof is that if you hit enough balls with the same action, you'll learn to play with what you've got.

That said, would I encourage a junior just to go hit a million balls? No. I'd encourage the pursuit of a biomechanically correct swing.

There's a reason why all top athletes in most other sports look the same when they move - they've been taught the most efficient paths and they use them. We're just finally starting to see it in golf (watch the Nationwide Tour rookies swing!)

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

In another thread, rotator had posted a few swings - Allan Doyle's to be specific. But the Golf Channel did the top 10 ugliest swings - AD was there, so was Jim Thorpe and Jim Furyk to name a couple more (and of course the Barkley swing).


The proof is that if you hit enough balls with the same action, you'll learn to play with what you've got.

That said, would I encourage a junior just to go hit a million balls? No. I'd encourage the pursuit of a biomechanically correct swing.

There's a reason why all top athletes in most other sports look the same when they move - they've been taught the most efficient paths and they use them. We're just finally starting to see it in golf (watch the Nationwide Tour rookies swing!)

Hi lowpost
i think you can learn both ways. by hitting a million ball and devoloping a swing a bit like Trevino did or you you can be get a teacher to teach you and train you how to swing and you have a swing like all the pros that come out collage looking as if the have the same swing.
both systems work but i think understanding your swing and how you use it is important to most handicap golfers as they have no one but thereselfs to turn to when there swing goes bad.
understanding the why and wherefore wound help you mend your swing not knowing will leave you in the dark, you have to know how your swing works and knowing how Tiger swings does not mean what helps him helps you.
for the high handicaper knowing the basics and understanding your swing will help you more along with hitting balls.
the other way if get a good teacher and keep going back to get him or her to tweek your swing and stop you getting bad habits.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I agree with Lowpost on this one, why would you teach a beginner a quirky swing? My opinion is with golf as with most other sports there is an effective and efficient way to play the sport and for the average amateur who cannot practice and play on a regular basis they would be best to fashion their golf swing such that they dont have to make various adjustments to bring the clubhead solidly into the ball.

There are only a few fundamentals in great ball striking and these are the cornerstone of good golf, every good player achieves them but some in a way that is easier to repeat. Poor swings can work but are more susceptible to breaking down and once broken are more difficult to fix.

[LowPost42]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I agree with Lowpost on this one, why would you teach a beginner a quirky swing? My opinion is with golf as with most other sports there is an effective and efficient way to play the sport and for the average amateur who cannot practice and play on a regular basis they would be best to fashion their golf swing such that they dont have to make various adjustments to bring the clubhead solidly into the ball.

There are only a few fundamentals in great ball striking and these are the cornerstone of good golf, every good player achieves them but some in a way that is easier to repeat. Poor swings can work but are more susceptible to breaking down and once broken are more difficult to fix.

I'm right there with you - for the average amateur, you're only as good as you can practice to be, so you have to make a choice: do the necessary work (medical science shows 3000-5000 proper repetitions to create a new neural pathway [aka change the 'muscle memory']) or keep working with the swing you've got and cement your move and play your ball flight. I still get my butt handed to me by older guys that play a 20 yard slice - but hit it every single time. They won't change their swing because it will introduce inconsistency.

I've gotta say that last year was the first year I was happy to have an off-season so that I could put the reps in to change my swing. But even I had a choice to make - new swing and new work or learn to use the swing I had.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Very intereresting topic, im probably on the other end of the scale.

I love what Jim furyks dad did for Jim, letting him develop his own swing with emphasis on skill development not technique. Sure jims swing is quirky but it works, it one of the most repeatable on tour for many years now.

The main reason everyone swings to a similar model now is because every one is taught that way. We have become a society dominated by science (most of it poor science) and so everyone wants to look for a technique reason for why they hit a bad shot. Unfortunately their coach will always give them a 'scientifically grounded' theory for why they hit that hook or pull. Then they set up a model of perfection that can never be acheived, like Mac O grady, Haney, Mike Bender, and any other teacher you can name.

Dont get me wrong, im not completely disregarding technique, but it comes below skill development and control of the ball. Technique should be a supplement to these things, not override them. In fifty years time the golf swing will look different to what we have now, and it will be absed on who is doing good at that time.

Its just a shame that we cant promote more individuality in the sport. No other sport is like it, every other sport we have players succeeding with weird individual actions that go against the grain, yet in golf this seems unnaceptable.

Tiger has won with 3 different swings, not because those swing were technically perfect, they weer different models. He won because of several reasons other than his technique.

AND - most importantly. A player who cant practice or play much needs a better swing - well maybe. But a player who doesnt practice or play much will never be able to LEARN a good siwng as it requires soooo many hours on the range to buld it into an automatic movement. and if it aint automatic, it aint going to work. I would suggest to this player that they make their automatic movement work better for them, and make it 'More automatic' (sounds strange but it can be done).

Its an oxymoron in itself to say that someone who doesnt hit thousands of balls needs a better technique.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

p.s. what did u decide upon lowpost?

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

There is a difference between the amount of practice a tour pro does and the minimum an amateur can do, if you are not prepared to do any practice then you cannot and dont deserve to improve. What they need to do is work on the basic fundamentals of good ball striking, as I suggested there are not many of them, three in fact. Purchasing the 3 skills 'Nail It' book and working on that is a good start.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

There is a difference between the amount of practice a tour pro does and the minimum an amateur can do, if you are not prepared to do any practice then you cannot and dont deserve to improve. What they need to do is work on the basic fundamentals of good ball striking, as I suggested there are not many of them, three in fact. Purchasing the 3 skills 'Nail It' book and working on that is a good start.

Couldnt agree more

I usually work on divot control and clubface control and plane via the nail analogy and i have a 95-98% success rate with clients (i base that upon their stats improving. i never have to get technical with the players to improve their swings

[LowPost42]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

p.s. what did u decide upon lowpost?

After winning my flight back to back at club champ, and being able to "kind of" count on my swing and playing basically a Trevino-style block (aim 20 degrees open and compress the snot out of the ball) I found what I have been looking for my entire golfing life - a biomechanically sound swing that appeals to my logical side. I've chosen to rework my swing.

So I attended a clinic, worked with the presenting team, got a boatload of drills, and started at it. The major warning they offered (and also offered it was true of any swing change) was that it would take literally thousands of repetitions to make a change so that I was unconciously competent at it (in layspeak, so I wouldn't have to think about it). So I still do a dozen slow swings per day, working on the correct fundamentals (aka perfect practice).

The flight I was winning in club champ was 4th.

The flight I competed in this year was 1st (a step below championship).

My ballstriking is much better, my ballflight is more repeatable and my misses are much more understood. I've hit balls of a quality this year that I've never hit before - the sound and flight is completely different than anything I've ever experienced. Will you see me on Tour next year? No. Will you see me in championship flight? If I can get my short game and putting under control, yes.

The work took my HCP from 22 (where it had floated for a year and a half) to a 15.5 - including breaking 80 at the home course.

Do I think I could have gotten there had I simply spent a ton of time at the range? Yes. But, FWIW, I've only gone to the range twice this year (and that's about my average).

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

very interesting. pleased you got your game in shape.
has anyone read 'Dream on'?
its about a guy who shot level par in less than a year - scratch to scratch (not really, his ahndicap wasnt that low but he shot level)

most of his breakthroughs were mental, if you beleive you can do it, you probably will

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

The main reason everyone swings to a similar model now is because every one is taught that way. We have become a society dominated by science (most of it poor science) and so everyone wants to look for a technique reason for why they hit a bad shot. Unfortunately their coach will always give them a 'scientifically grounded' theory for why they hit that hook or pull. Then they set up a model of perfection that can never be acheived, like Mac O grady, Haney, Mike Bender, and any other teacher you can name.

off topic- +1 to that poor science comment. Back in the day, scientist use to be out there to find out and proove the truth, now a days there are just out there to make money. They scew their findings and bias it so much that they can pretty much proove whatever they want so that their point is the truth and try to make money off of it.

global warming is the biggest example of that greedy BS so called "science" now a days. And the X factor is an example of it related to golf.

/rant

[kbp]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

There is more emphasis on technique in EVERY sport. The games are all being played at a much higher level than ever before. The level of competition is WAY higher. The athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, and most importantly, they are coached and trained in technique WAY more than ever before. The level of talent is high, of course, but the talent is now ALWAYS coached and drilled very intensely in technique. Spend some time around a major college football, baseball or basketball program. Technique to ENHANCE natural talent.

Back on topic....I guarantee Mr. Nicklaus KNEW he was on an upright plane versus a flat plane. He discusses it in his book. His leg drive was integral to him to operating on that plane.

I also guanantee Mr. Hogan KNEW he was on a relatively flat plane. Read his writings and look at his illustrated CHOICE of "plane". His more rotational move....the braced right leg and the elastic band pulling the left hip.....was integral to operating on that plane.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

hi
you find almost all the the pro's now spend some time in the USA at there golf college's and it not just the golf coaching there there for but also there told what to eat and how long to work in gym and what group of muscles to work on and also what to eat and drink.
there life style is built around training and playing golf.
30 years ago very few golfers worked out every day in the gym and fewer eat heathely. i think Gary Player was one of the few that had a strict diet and work out.
cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

global warming is the biggest example of that greedy BS so called "science" now a days. And the X factor is an example of it related to golf.

/rant

Lol, i hear that global warming has a direct correlation with the decline of pirates. i could draw a graph to scientifically illustrate and hence prove this (im joking but basically this is how science operates in golf)

true about the x factor stuff. Jim mclean thought (pun intended) that pros do x and get y, hence if amateurs do x they must also get y. WRONG mr Mclean, even if you did have men in white coats and geeky expressions working with you on that theory (congrats on selling milions of copies of that book too).

Pros have x because of y, but it doesnt work both ways. instead you now have a load of young pga pros telling coffin dodgers to get some x factor in there and they will be rippin it. now we have lots of bad backs and less distance. WHEN WILL WE LEARN?


And BILL
yes, i agree this is the way to go. a holistic view. It all goes into the pot, psychology, fitness, nutrition, practice habit, technique, skill development, short game, club fitting,course management, routines etc and much more. Just let us not get dominated by technique, there are too many people who beleive that every bad shot has a purely swing reason for it. This is determinism in its purest sense and is dangerous

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Lol, i hear that global warming has a direct correlation with the decline of pirates. i could draw a graph to scientifically illustrate and hence prove this (im joking but basically this is how science operates in golf)

true about the x factor stuff. Jim mclean thought (pun intended) that pros do x and get y, hence if amateurs do x they must also get y. WRONG mr Mclean, even if you did have men in white coats and geeky expressions working with you on that theory (congrats on selling milions of copies of that book too).

Pros have x because of y, but it doesnt work both ways. instead you now have a load of young pga pros telling coffin dodgers to get some x factor in there and they will be rippin it. now we have lots of bad backs and less distance. WHEN WILL WE LEARN?


And BILL
yes, i agree this is the way to go. a holistic view. It all goes into the pot, psychology, fitness, nutrition, practice habit, technique, skill development, short game, club fitting,course management, routines etc and much more. Just let us not get dominated by technique, there are too many people who beleive that every bad shot has a purely swing reason for it. This is determinism in its purest sense and is dangerous

ROLF coffin dodgers, don't think I have heard that one before.

But yes, you understand EXACTLY what I was trying to say, well put.

Even an intersting point on how every bad shot is not nessisarily due to bad tecnique, as I am very technique oriented, but I see what you are getting at.