Correct downswing sequence

[nate doggy cat]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

If you start the swing with the hips and shoulders coming through first, wont it leave your whole body and the clubface way open?

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

On a lot of swings there is a point before impact that the hips and shoulders practically stop and that is when the arms whip through, and they then turn the shoulders to the top

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

I cannot contradict a statement that states that for some golfers "the hips and shoulders practically stop just before impact and the arms whip through and carry the shoulders to the top" - because it may apply to some golfers.

However, when the SLAP researchers studied the swings of multiple PGA tour players, and created the ModelPro model, this is the model swing they produced.

See - http://jeffmann.net/SLAP-followthroughgrace.jpg

Note that the hips and shoulders continue to rotate through impact, but the shoulders move faster than the hips and eventually overtake the hips. At no time does a Pro golfer deliberately slow down the hips and/or shoulders during the downswing, impact and followthrough.

Nate

Although the hips and shoulders lead the downswing, the clubshaft catches up by impact because the clubshaft accelerates super-fast after the right forearm/wrist releases the club at the delivery position.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AB...cComposite.jpg

This next diagram shows how fast the clubshaft accelerates in the 50msec before impact.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/FofH-speed.jpg

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

I cannot contradict a statement that states that for some golfers "the hips and shoulders practically stop just before impact and the arms whip through and carry the shoulders to the top" - because it may apply to some golfers.

However, when the SLAP researchers studied the swings of multiple PGA tour players, and created the ModelPro model, this is the model swing they produced.

See - http://jeffmann.net/SLAP-followthroughgrace.jpg

Note that the hips and shoulders continue to rotate through impact, but the shoulders move faster than the hips and eventually overtake the hips. At no time does a Pro golfer deliberately slow down the hips and/or shoulders during the downswing, impact and followthrough.

Nate

Although the hips and shoulders lead the downswing, the clubshaft catches up by impact because the clubshaft accelerates super-fast after the right forearm/wrist releases the club at the delivery position.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AB...cComposite.jpg

This next diagram shows how fast the clubshaft accelerates in the 50msec before impact.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/FofH-speed.jpg

Jeff.

Jeff

I hope I can clarify this:

If you look at your first set of images http://jeffmann.net/SLAP-followthroughgrace.jpg , images two and three in particular, the right shoulder drops and almost holds back while the arms continue to rotate forward into the fully extended forward position.

This is the feel I find most important in stopping the right shoulder from heaving up and around to the front through impact, losing spine angle and throwing the arms left across the chest as the torso straightens early creating mishits.

[jambalaya]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Yeah what Ian says ... what you are doing is swinging in a new way so your are really learning to play again. I find that if I lost distance it was usually because the distance between the ball and my toes, at address, has grown. I think the nearer you can stand to the ball the more the arms drop down instead of around the shoulders; swing around whilst it feels powerful is really counter-productive in golf. If you change your swing it will be probable that you have to change to address too.

This is a good point. I too have changed my swing by letting the arms relax and just drop back into position with the hip and shoulder turn on the through swing. I had to move just a bit closer to the ball because I was probably reaching a little bit rather than letting the hands hang naturally at address.

[jambalaya]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Hi guys,


Until this winter I was swinging just like most of you described it. My point of reference was my left knee. It felt like I was trowing my left knee at the target. Then followed my hips, my shoulders, my hands and finally the club head. I took some lessons this winter with a CPGA pro and he just destroyed the mental image I had of my swing. He actually told that my hands should be the first moving part. That you should move your hands first so that they get back in line with your target. Then the rest of the body should follow the typical order we have been talking about.

The first 25 swings were a disaster. I was hitting the ground 12 to 18 inches before the ball... and I'm not a bad golfer(nor I'm I a great one!). It took awhile and I did lose about 5 yards on my irons but I am a lot more accurate. My question is has anyone heard this tip or even felt like this while swinging?

Don't you love when this happens. You go to a pro and he completely destroys your swing Karma.

[golfseeker]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

If you start the swing with the hips and shoulders coming through first, wont it leave your whole body and the clubface way open?

The sequence that I have been using in practice is what I read in Jim Hardy's book "The Plane Truth for Golfers" its on page 67. This sequence relates to the one plane swing (which I am working on). To quote from the book "In the one-plane swing, you should think of the swing as having three parts: "One" for the backswing, then "two" as you set weight onto your left foot and slightly begin to turn the left hip back to the left, and "three" as you turn your upper body and hips as quickly as possible back down to the ball."

Watching a segment on the Golf Channel this morning Tom Lehman demonstrated this same sequence and he said doing it in slow motion is really helpful in getting the proper feeling and order of moving parts in the golf swing. On the backswing he loads up ("One"), as the club got to the top he then moved his left knee slightly towards the target ("Two") followed by the downswing ("Three"). There was no further lateral movement to the left in the follow-through because he already made that slight move in "two".

IMHO this is the easy to remember and apply.

Hope this helps

Seeker

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

jeff as I have stated before you need a lot more pictures in a sequence to see what is going on but you seem to ignore that. Look on Brian manzellas site on the role of the left arm in swinging and ask brian to explain his post further, he understands it. Kinetic energy aplies to every thing we do, if you dont use it right then you are diong unatural motions. the link you provided on kinetic energy shows the hips at almost a stop by impact and the shoulders would be closer if they took into account rotation of the spine instead of counting shoulder abduction and adduction as rotation. I used to think just like you on the golf swing but something happened and I have changed. with knowing your points and other points I choose to stay where I am. I ask you this, is it possible that maybe I do know something that you dont? Do you accept that as a possibility?

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Brian - you state that it "appears" that the right shoulder is being held back.

The reason why I don't believe that the shoulder rotation is being slowed (held back) is based on the research studies of the SLAP authors and they state that the shoulders actually start to catch up to the hips during the downswing, and the angle-difference in the degree of rotation of the shoulders relative to the hips gets progressively less as the downswing progresses.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SLAP-hipsearlyDS.jpg

Then by impact, the shoulders are even less behind the hips. Then, the shoulders overtake the hips in the early/mid followthrough.

In my own swing, once I start the downswing, I just keep rotating my torso all the way to the end-followthrough. I never deliberately hold back on any part of my body's rotation. I concentrate on starting with a hip shift-rotation, but I try to make sure that the right side of my body keeps up. In the SLAP book, the authors state that the biggest downswing difference between good amateur and professional golfers is the fact that professional golfers ensure that their right side keeps up with the left side in the downswing. I can understand why that is true.

Shootin4par

For all I know, you may know a lot more about the golf swing than me. However, it can only become apparent to me if you express your knowledge in a form that I am capable of understanding, and in a form that allows me to realize that you know more than me.

Regarding that diagram, it primarily reflects the rate of change of kinetic energy of different body parts measured in degrees of change/second, and you can see that certain body parts slow down in ther later downswing, but never stop. For example, at time 12, the shoulders are still moving at 400 degrees/second and the hips are still moving at 100 degrees/second. Obviously the hips/shoulders continue rotating all the way through the downswing and followthrough.

Jeff.

[andym]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

you guys are amazingly talented!! i believe that when you initiate something at the ball in less than 1/8 th of a second the clubhead makes contact with the ball! measured in frames on a high speed camera dropping a ball from shoulder height takes 16 frames to strike the gound.
A top pro takes between 6 to 9 frames to make his club move from the backswing position to impact. All pretty quick to do too much concious work.... but here's a thought when you hammer a nail what do you think about and do? when you throw a ball cast a fishing rod what was the concious intention? up to you!

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

I think that the downswing is much too fast to consciously change anything happening during the downswing - once it has started. That's why I think it is very important to get the start of the downswing correct. From the top of the backswing, there is enough time to pre-program your body into starting the downswing with a lower body move and an intended complete swing to a complete followthrough. It is the same thing with a side-arm frisbee throw, or a side-throw ball throw, one can only think of the start of the throw and its degree of completion (intended degree of followthrough). From then on, everything evolves according to human physiology.

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Brian - you state that it "appears" that the right shoulder is being held back.

The reason why I don't believe that the shoulder rotation is being slowed (held back) is based on the research studies of the SLAP authors and they state that the shoulders actually start to catch up to the hips during the downswing, and the angle-difference in the degree of rotation of the shoulders relative to the hips gets progressively less as the downswing progresses.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SLAP-hipsearlyDS.jpg

Then by impact, the shoulders are even less behind the hips. Then, the shoulders overtake the hips in the early/mid followthrough.

In my own swing, once I start the downswing, I just keep rotating my torso all the way to the end-followthrough. I never deliberately hold back on any part of my body's rotation. I concentrate on starting with a hip shift-rotation, but I try to make sure that the right side of my body keeps up. In the SLAP book, the authors state that the biggest downswing difference between good amateur and professional golfers is the fact that professional golfers ensure that their right side keeps up with the left side in the downswing. I can understand why that is true.
Jeff.

Jeff,

I did say it was difficult to clarify but here goes:

In my swing the right shoulder holds back during the transition of the arms from impact through to the fully extended down the line position, this keeps my spine angle intact and my head facing the ball then lifting to that "on the pillow" position, it stops the spine angle from lifting and the right shoulder from an early heave up and around. I do not finish with my right shoulder down the target line but rather square to it. This is difficult to describe, I should try and get some images.

Andym,

It is important to know the movement of your body through the swing, when practiced it creates a flowing ingrained repeatable rhythm. The golf swing kinematics cannot be controlled in the short time the swing happens but can be grooved.

[jbrunk]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

My experience has been that if you have a proper backswing and are coiled up over your right knee tha the change of direction automatically moves the weight laterally from the right to left at the beginning of the downswing. At that point it is just letting your hips rotate left.

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

For all I know, you may know a lot more about the golf swing than me. However, it can only become apparent to me if you express your knowledge in a form that I am capable of understanding, and in a form that allows me to realize that you know more than me.

Regarding that diagram, it primarily reflects the rate of change of kinetic energy of different body parts measured in degrees of change/second, and you can see that certain body parts slow down in ther later downswing, but never stop. For example, at time 12, the shoulders are still moving at 400 degrees/second and the hips are still moving at 100 degrees/second. Obviously the hips/shoulders continue rotating all the way through the downswing and followthrough.

Jeff.

lets see if we can get on the same page
in the diagram it does not show impact hip speed or shoulder movement. Unless I am reading it wrong both those lines stop before they get to impact. But as you can clearly see the hips and shoulders are not going very fast at impact., hips are basically going the same speed as the intitial part of the takaway way before impact, so if that line continued further slowing would probably occur untill well after impact
do you understand what I mean by shoulder abduction and adduction
do a search on it if not
but if they confuse shoulder abduction and adduction for shoulder rotation, then it would throw off the stats. shoulder adduction and abduction give the illusion or shoulder rotation but should actually count only towards arm motion. If you put a shaft across the shoulders and abducted and adducted, the chest would still point forward but the illusion would be we have 30+ degrees of rotation when no shoulder or spine rotation occured. That is another reason why pictures do not tell the whole story, XRay images in the golf swing would be most beneficial to truly understand body motion.

here is the thread in bmans that I am reffering too, look at his response
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=7890

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

The way that I interpret the graph is that it is a measure of angular speed relative to the target. As the hips reach closer to the impact position, the left hip is moving back around to the left and the right hip is moving around - which means that there is less forward angular acceleration when measured from a "towards the target" perspective. Also, as the body pivots around to the left over a straightened left leg (hitting against a "firm left side"), the left hip must slow down considerably. The shoulders must likewise slow down as the right shoulder dips below the chin, because as the lower torso pivots around to the left, it must impede the forward motion of the shoulders. If the hips and shoulders didn't slow down (in terms of forward angular acceleration) then the torso would move outside the body's base of support - between the legs. All good golfers pivot around an imaginary axis situated in the region of the left armpit, and that pivoting phenomenon must stop foward movement of the hips (so that the hips only get to be perpendicular to the ball-target line at the end of the followthrough, while the shoulders turn an extra 60-120 degrees so that the right shoulder is closer to the target than the left shoulder at the end of the followthrough).

I am very familair with the terms shoulder adduction and abduction, and I realize that one must measure shoulder turn independently of any shoulder ab/adduction.

Jeff.