Correct downswing sequence

[golfseeker]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Another drill that can be performed in the "one, two, three" manner I described above is this (for right handed golfers, reverse for lefty's). Take your normal stance. ("0ne") As you start your backswing slide your left foot (on the target line) to touch your right foot. ("Two") Just as you reach the top of your backswing start to slide your left foot back to where it was at address. As you are sliding left foot to its original position your downswing is already on its way to impact. You complete the follow-through as you rotate around your left leg.

This is basically same sequence in baseball (or tennis) as well as golf. Watch any baseball player hit a baseball. The first move is the backswing (becomes stationary in baseball), if the player decided he wants to hit the ball he then takes a step or slides towards the mound. At that moment the hitter is determining if he wants to hit the ball or not. If he elects to go ahead and continues to swing towards the on-coming baseball he may contact the ball or not. Even if he misses or gets a home run he will rotate around his left leg on his follow-through. But, in a round about way, the golf swing is the same as the baseball batter's swing. The golfer has the luxury in that the ball is stationary....the ball is just sitting there begging to be hit it.
That's my take on the sequence in golf and I'm sticking to it.
Seeker

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

so in that graph do you know or not for sure if they take the adduction and abduction into account? I have found the rest of that graph http://www.biosporttechnologies.com/...golf_swing.htm
the shoulders actually have three peaks according to that graph and at all three peaks the shoulders are moving at about the same speed. Do you have any insight into the people who made this graph? And if so I would like to know why 3 peaks of shoulder speed. I do understand what you mean about everything has to slow down at a certain point, but you can see how at points in the swing things slow down and then speed back up again. This is because of kinetic energy is being reversed.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

Interesting chart - it has more details and plots kinetic energy in the post-impact phase. I have no idea how they make these charts.

I only have a rough idea about what they represent. I have no idea why there are 3 shoulder peaks, and to what degree shoulder adduction/abduction affects their figures.

I only use those graphs to understand a basic principle- that there is a sequence of movements in the downswing - starting with the hips, then shoulders, and finally the arms/clubshaft; and that each sequential movement accelerates faster as one moves from the core to the periphery.

Jeff.

[andym]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

On the downswing are you supposed to start by shifting your weight to the left side (for a right hander) and turning your hips before everything else? If I turn my hips to start the downswing I feel like at impact I get stuck and my club is open. What am I doing wrong?

If trying to co ordinate your body squence seems difficult why don't you try what nature intended....your hands move your body! Any neurologist would tell you that the area of the brain that conciously controls your thumb is 2/3 rds greater than the area of the brain that conciously controls your entire torso. Given that your hands hold the club why not think of hitting the ball with the clubhead and start to become aware of what your hands do to the clubface to create a result. Remember the ball does not lie, the answer may lie in an "unusual feeling" to create the shot pattern you want.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

The last post offers advice that is 180 degrees different to the standard approach to the modern, total body style golf swing (see http://perfectgolfswingreview.net ).

I believe that the full golf swing is a total body movement and that one needs to learn how to move the entire body appropriately in space. The hands only offer fine control, and they mainly offer nuanaced control in short iron play. The hands should be passive in the full golf swing, and their primary function is to hold onto the grip in a neutral manner.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

The last post offers advice that is 180 degrees different to the standard approach to the modern, total body style golf swing (see http://perfectgolfswingreview.net ).

I believe that the full golf swing is a total body movement and that one needs to learn how to move the entire body appropriately in space. The hands only offer fine control, and they mainly offer nuanaced control in short iron play. The hands should be passive in the full golf swing, and their primary function is to hold onto the grip in a neutral manner.

Jeff.

you say they are passive, does that mean the wrists do not suplly added power? essentially if the arms remain passive, lets say as spaghetti noodles, and we continually rotate how would we hit the ball?

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Shootin4par

Correct. The wrists are not isotonically active in the double pendulum swing action style of golf swing (modern, total body golf swing).

See - http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/De...?ref=golfcoast

According to Jorgensen, the wrists do not need to be active in the double pendulum swing action. In fact, he determined that active wrists do not add significant swing power (only ~5%) even if it is possible to add active wrist power at the optimum moment.

However, passive wrists and passive hands do not imply that there is no isometric tension in the arms/hands.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Andrisani-HalfDS.jpg

Note the tension in Tiger Woods arms. In requires a considerable amount of isometric muscle power to keep the right wrist hinged back, and the right elbow at right angles, and to get the right elbow to the right hip area at the start of the downswing (to the delivery position) - where right wrist release will occur passively through the double pendulum swing action.

The word "passive" with respect to the arms/hands only applies to isotonic forces that cause movement across a joint. In the double pendulum swing action model, isotonic forces are not required to move the peripheral hinge joint (wrists/hands).

Another point - the right arm also has to be pulled rapidly down to the right hip area at the start of the dowswing, and the right elbow must lead the downswing and it should appear below the left forearm.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Faldo-HalfWayDown.jpg

Note how Nick Faldo's right elbow is below his left arm. It requires considerable isometric muscle force to keep the right elbow in that position. The arms cannot be like noodles. However, the right arm is being pulled closer to the torso by shoulder girdle muscles, and not arm muscles. The arm/forearm muscles are required to keep the right elbow at 90 degrees, and the right wrist bent back, while the right arm is being pulled down by muscles outside the right upper limb (shoulder girdle muscles).

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Interesting read leaves me with some questions that I would like to discuss further. Thanks for the link to that site.
where are his numbers that say at point A. the shoulder move this fast, point B. the hands move this fast, point C. the club moves he says the arms/wrists only add 5 % but I would like to see some numbers other then a statement.
the pendulum concepts he talks about, ok I see what he is saying. I do think his diagram of the golfer is off because it shows no added speed by the hips mving forward, which moves the pendulum of the shoulders down, which makes the club trail behind. In his green and black line there is a stick or hinge for the green which represents the shoulder but nothing represents the hips which assist in moving the shoulders.
Why would a baseball swing not be a double pendulum but on just a different plane, and if barry is going for a low and away curveball then it is almost the same plane. Cracking a whip can add great spead, so if we could use the pendulums and careck a whip through impact, maybe we coudl hit if farther then all the models, it is possible this is what long drivers are doing? They have to have some way of getting ungodly clubhead speed, is it their bodies are that much more advanced or that they maximize and utilitze every part of their bodies during the swing.
intersesting disscusion
Neil

[tony_teetime]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

The hands should be passive in the full golf swing, and their primary function is to hold onto the grip in a neutral manner.

Jeff.

The hands should be passive , like do nothing , or "not isotonically active" ? Are you sure about that ? I don't agree with that.

In the fullswing , there should be a left hand cock and a right wrist hinge.

I think this TGM guy Martin Hall who I think is a great teacher will disagree with the hands being "passive" also. There are some hand action in the full swing, it just doesnt sit there hanging on to the club as you think.

If you don't believe that the hands has any part other than just being passive, then put your hands on ice for five minutes , hit some balls and come back and tell me if you still believe that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44fev4wqC6U

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Tony

If you believe that the hands are active in the downswing phase of the full golf swing, please explain to me when they are active and what they are doing? I'll respond after I read your response.

Jeff.

p.s. I viewed that Martin video. I certainly agree that the left wrist should be flat (or slightly bowed) at impact, and that the right wrist should be slightly cupped (hinged) at impact.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Neil

There is far more detail in Jorgensen's book (The Physics of Golf) than you can find in that website page. You can get some figures from his book. I never studied the subject in enough depth to get precise numbers. I only understand the general principles underlying the double pendulum swing action model. The double pendulum swing action model is actually too simplistic, and you are correct to state that there is an additional component - the central hinge joint actually moves forward due to hip shift in the early downswing, and it adds to swing power. I have never studied the subject in great depth in an attempt to discover how much swing power comes from moving the central hinge point forward while the central hinge point is being activated. I know that there has been some scientific research on the subject, but I don't know the details.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

thanks for the response jeff, I am looking into the physics more in depth. I enjoyed that read and seemed to be able to follow it
here is where I sit on the hands and body swinging
I will try to paint an illustration that has no scientific numbers but just to paint a mental picture of what I am talking about

If you rotate the torso at say 50 mph, then it would be much to fast to apply any extra energy with the arms and hands, they just go along for the ride as you say. lets just say that swing would max out at 100 mph. Imagine throwing a baseball while moving the body so violently/fast that control of the arm is hard, the body has 99% of the active motion, the arm has 1 or 0% and is just holding onto the ball.

If you rotate the torso at say 5 mph, then you can apply energy with the arms and hands and get the clubhead speed to max out at say 90 mph
kind of like you standing and facing me, chest facing me, and you only move your right arm to throw me a ball your body is not moving but you still get some speed. arm here is controlling 90+% of the speed and you max out at 90mph
You following me?

now lets get a swing where we mix the two, the torso rotates fast enough to add speed like in the first example, but slow enough for the arm to be actively involved like in the second example and now with those combined we max out at 120

I hope that you feel this is discussing and that I am coming across that way.

so in relation to science this is where I stand. If I was going to beleive in a scientific study the hips have to be involved and maybe this makes it a triple pendulum, I dont know but jorgensons model needs the hip element, we are in agreement there. From there they have to study the players that have tremendous clubhead speed, these should be the model I would want the fastest and most effecient swingers in there like snead and austin I would also want it where where the torso pivot speed is measured and compared against other players . Austin looks like he is barely swinging, I was talking with John weaver of rovergolf.com last week. He studied under austin for a few years and said the man hit his 1 iron 280 on the fly, in his sixties that is just nuts So where did austin get his speed, is it all in the pivot?
would the research find that players with the same torso rotation speed have varying clubhead speeds? would they also find that certain players had speed that was/is beyond faster then what centrifigul force would do? would they find players with slower torso speed and higher clubhead speed? research that takes that into consideration is what I would like to find, and I tend tho think that the discussion me and Cmays had on parametric accleratoin may be a good part of the equation.

If we can slow down our torso to the point where we can control the ams and have the arms exert force as well and also add things like P.A., maybe that is the perfect blend of all components and the optimum golf swing. we will exert each part less but in the end gain more. and since no part will be exerted too much this swing will be easier for everyone and also save their backs in the long run.

your thoughts?

Neil

[tony_teetime]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Tony

If you believe that the hands are active in the downswing phase of the full golf swing, please explain to me when they are active and what they are doing? I'll respond after I read your response.

Jeff.

p.s. I viewed that Martin video. I certainly agree that the left wrist should be flat (or slightly bowed) at impact, and that the right wrist should be slightly cupped (hinged) at impact.

Were you watching the part about the wrist cock in the left wrist and the hinge action of the right hand ? How could you have missed that? Mr. Hall deliberately put the hinging gadgets on his wrist to make a point ...so why did you not acknowledge that part of Mr. Hall's explaination of what the hand does ? I will hold off on judging you or saying that you were "selectively" listening until you acknowledge that watched that part.
If you did indeed have watched that , and still don't believe Mr. Hall about the roles of hands and wrist, then tell us why you dispute that.

Secondly, I 've never mentioned anything about the hand action for the "downsing" phase in this topic (you put those words in my mouth, please don't do that) , I only said "the hands are active in the fullswing" in general(quote me correctly please) . But anyhow, I'll still be a good sport and answer your question in regards to what the hands does on the downswing.

During the downswing the job of the hands is to hold the angle of the cocked position in order to stay lagged as long as posible before releasing that angle through impact. That is what the hand does on the downswing and you can quote me on that.

Now, Have you done the challenge that I've given and put your hands on ice for five minutes and attempt to hit ball? Until you've done that, then I guess you won't be convinced that the hands indeed play a key role in getting your club cocked and loaded. The hands are not as passive as you think they are . Anyhow, don't take my word or Mr. Hall's word for it , the truth lies in that test, please try it.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Neil

Your interest in the physics of the golf swing probably far exceeds my interest.

I have never studied how fast different parts of the body are moving in a full golf swing. I am only interested in general principles.

I think of the golf swing as I think of a baseball pitcher. I know that certain baseball pitchers can pitch faster than other pitchers, but I have never studied why. All I know about baseball pitchers is that they use their entire body to power the pitch. They first take a step back and load up with their arm far back. They then throw their torso forward starting with the lower body and then the upper body. Finally, the arms whip past their torso and the ball is released. It's the sequence of body movements that interest me. By analogy, an optimised golf downswing requires that body parts also move in a certain sequence - lower body first, then upper body, then arms. To maximise swing power, I suspect that the sequence has to be highly coordinated/synchronised, but I have never read any scientific studies that have analysed the sequence of body movements in great depth. I am amazed that PGA tour players can hit their drives much further than me (350 yards versus 250 yards), despite swinging in a seemingly effortless manner. If you ever discover how they accomplish that astonishing feat, please let me know. I have no clear idea how certain golfers manage to generate clubhead speeds of 130+mph! It's simply amazing to me!

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Correct downswing sequence

Tony - I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was only expressing what is in my mind. I never realised that we were discussing the backswing and downswing when we were discussing active versus passive hands. I thought that we were only discussing the downswing.

Regarding the backswing, I agree that the hands are active in the sense that the "setting of the wrists" occurs in the mid-backswing so that the clubshaft ends up at an approximately 90 degree angle relative to the left forearm at the end-backswing. I also agree that the ACTIVE wrist movements involved include-: i) cocking up of the left wrist and pronation of the left wrist (due to clockwise rotation of the left forearm); ii) hinging back of the right wrist and supination of the right wrist (due to a counterclockwise rotation of the right forearm). I absolutely agree that those wrist movements are active, because they are needed to overcome gravity working through the clubshaft's weight.

In the downswing, those wrist movements are reversed. However, I believe that it occurs passively in response to centrifugal forces set into play at the central hinge joint (via a double pendulum swing action model). I am personally not aware of any active wrist-hand movements occurring in the downswing phase of the golf swing. If I am in error, please correct me.

Jeff.