Ball position

[keiko]

Re: Ball position

I was referring to dagosa being very dogmatic and dismissing all others as not knowing anything. I think that was very funny because there is no indication that he is: a. qualified to be teaching anyone anything and, b. that his posts thusfar seem very self serving.
Anyway, I try to keep my posts short and humorous as I have no need to read long winded diatribes and won't subject others to same.
Just a different twist on trying to help others and one that apparently some on this board have little appreciation for.
To each his own.

[bill reed]

Re: Ball position

There are no absolutes in a good golf shot, just general statements with lots of exceptions. so here goes. Obviously the lie has much to do with the divot as does the club construction. But as a general statement, standard irons are a divot making apparatus, hopefully used with discretion.
Playing the ball well forward as many do, is done, not to refrain from collecting divots, but to square face. And, "reading" the divot is an excellent way of getting feed back on your contact.

The best strikers I play with, consistently take fairly aggressive divots, the worse, in general, try to be pickers with the all too frequent "fatty". Let me add that these good strikers are fastidious about course repair as well, the pickers when failing to, less so.

Hi Dagosa
i find that playing links golf that you do not take so much of a divot. it more like you cutting the grass down to the roots than taking it to the soil.
i do find that with the same swing i do take a deeper divot when playing inland courses and you do see the soil.
i take it it has to do the the sandy soil on the links courses making the ground have more bounce and it does feel spongy when walking on a good links course.
i see others round me also dont take a deep divot and even watching say the open you dont see big divets flying in the air like you do an a lot of the inland USA courses.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: Ball position

good comments dagosa. i would add that for the majority of players, playing the ball further forward does several things

• has a tendancy to close the face
• has a tendancy to make swing path more left through impact
• has tendancy to increase dynamic loft thus increasing launch angle
• has tendancy to shallow out angle of attack hence shallower divots and higher launch angle and less backspin

the reverse is true for moving the ball back, and all of these can be used to a players advantage when they are learned in these factors

I can see what you mean but sometimes moving the ball can have the opposite effect. Moving it forward can open your shoulders and make some swing out to in and fade or slice. Placing it further back can close the shoulders promoting a swing more in to out and hook or draw.

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/v...tion-The-Ball/

[rogue]

Re: Ball position

I can see what you mean but sometimes moving the ball can have the opposite effect. Moving it forward can open your shoulders and make some swing out to in and fade or slice. Placing it further back can close the shoulders promoting a swing more in to out and hook or draw.

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/v...tion-The-Ball/

true, thats why I used the word tendancy. The obvious commonality is the swing path change that we both agree upon. Clubface variants have many other influences too. I based this on the fact that the club rotates roughly 180 degrees through impact (hip high to hip high) so placing ball further forward would tend to make a player hit with a more shut face - its the same idea behind offset clubs. But I am more inclined to go with what you say as placing the ball further forward is often not done in isolation - as I was referring to before.

[BrianW]

Re: Ball position

As I have stated before my preferred ball position is in line with my left armpit, this places the ball a few inches inside my left heel, here it is in the natural position where the left arm's arc is lowest.

[kbp]

Re: Ball position

To the OP:

For folks with a big leg drive like Nicklaus, then always up toward the left heel or so may be fine.

For folks who open their stance with the shorter clubs and close it as they get longer, like Hogan, again, the ball always up forward may be fine. Opening the stance effectively moves the ball backward. Draw a line from heel to heel and then a line from the ball perpendicular to this "heel line". A forward ball position with an open stance will actually align more toward the midpoint of the heel line.

You being a 20 plus HC, IMO, make it easy. Square stance and start with the ball the centered between the heels for the wedges and move it gradually forward as the club gets longer. The driver will be around your left heel or in that area. I am not saying anything or anybody else is "wrong" but IMO, this is the best place for beginners to start.

This is generic information for "standard" shots. Exact ball position, as with everything, is an individual thing and subject to your unique swing and the shot.

[dagosa]

Re: Ball position

As I have stated before my preferred ball position is in line with my left armpit, this places the ball a few inches inside my left heel, here it is in the natural position where the left arm's arc is lowest.

The same for me, and I see little contradiction with "moving the ball" as that's what some of us do effectively when we move our back foot forward or back depending upon club length. This done with ball "a few inches", 2 for me, inside the left heal. Practically speaking, the ball is centered or a little back for both in the shorter clubs. In these instances, I feel we position similarly.

[dagosa]

Re: Ball position

I was referring to dagosa being very dogmatic and dismissing all others as not knowing anything. I think that was very funny because there is no indication that he is: a. qualified to be teaching anyone anything and, b. that his posts thusfar seem very self serving.
Anyway, I try to keep my posts short and humorous as I have no need to read long winded diatribes and won't subject others to same.
Just a different twist on trying to help others and one that apparently some on this board have little appreciation for.
To each his own.

Sorry you feel offended or think it self serving when I preface my experiences with "I feel" or "for me". That should be the least offensive way of disagreeing as "for you" it's obviously different. Referring to an iron as a "sod ripping machine" was probably a feeble attempt at humor as well...that was not taken well in your case.
If only the "qualified" were allowed time here, I wouldn't qualify I sure by your standards.

Feel free to stop reading my post at anytime. I do yours w/o offense.
Regards.

[bill reed]

Re: Ball position

To the OP:

For folks with a big leg drive like Nicklaus, then always up toward the left heel or so may be fine.


For folks who open their stance with the shorter clubs and close it as they get longer, like Hogan, again, the ball always up forward may be fine. Opening the stance effectively moves the ball backward. Draw a line from heel to heel and then a line from the ball perpendicular to this "heel line". A forward ball position with an open stance will actually align more toward the midpoint of the heel line.

You being a 20 plus HC, IMO, make it easy. Square stance and start with the ball the centered between the heels for the wedges and move it gradually forward as the club gets longer. The driver will be around your left heel or in that area. I am not saying anything or anybody else is "wrong" but IMO, this is the best place for beginners to start.

This is generic information for "standard" shots. Exact ball position, as with everything, is an individual thing and subject to your unique swing and the shot.

Hi KBP
i know with my very open stance you do feel that the ball is a lot further back in your stance but its just that your left foot is pulled back and this makes you think the ball has moved back.
if you line up with your feet squre and the ball just off the back left heel and then move your left foot back 6 inches to open your stance it look like the ball has moved back but the ball has not moved and if still just of the back heel.
cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: Ball position

Hi KBP
i know with my very open stance you do feel that the ball is a lot further back in your stance but its just that your left foot is pulled back and this makes you think the ball has moved back.
if you line up with your feet squre and the ball just off the back left heel and then move your left foot back 6 inches to open your stance it look like the ball has moved back but the ball has not moved and if still just of the back heel.
cheers
Bill

I agree. Both you and KBP are right, but for different swings.

true ball position is complicated - its basically perpendicualr to the swing path. So a player who swings in to out would need a ball position that looks further back (but physics wise it produces the same impact as a player with a neutral swing who has perfect ball position) and vice versa.

almost everything in the golf swing should be taken in relationship to the swing path (not body allignment), the only problem is we can only know what the swing path what after we have swung. however most people have a very consistent swing path, even hackers.

[Wil]

Re: Ball position

Thanks BrianW

my preferred ball position is in line with my left armpit, this places the ball a few inches inside my left heel, here it is in the natural position where the left arm's arc is lowest.

Your reply didn't sink in the first time I read it.

Makes perfect sense to me-IMO case closed!

...Wil

[keiko]

Re: Ball position

Let me apologize for my direct and not so polite post(s), I would like to re-group with you and be more tolerant.
Golf is a gentleman's game and I will try to be more like that.

Sorry you feel offended or think it self serving when I preface my experiences with "I feel" or "for me". That should be the least offensive way of disagreeing as "for you" it's obviously different. Referring to an iron as a "sod ripping machine" was probably a feeble attempt at humor as well...that was not taken well in your case.
If only the "qualified" were allowed time here, I wouldn't qualify I sure by your standards.

Feel free to stop reading my post at anytime. I do yours w/o offense.
Regards.

[kbp]

Re: Ball position

Bill and rogue - It’s not that the ball just "feels" further back with an open stance, it effectively IS further back for the reasons I provided. IMO, the statement is true for any swing path. If you open the stance from square, by dropping the left foot, you are effectively moving the ball back in the stance. The path may determine the degree to which it is effectively moved back, but there is no swing path that will make the ball effectively more forward with this open stance. Keep opening the stance to 90 degrees to the target. It should be clearly obvious at that point that the ball is not in front of your body but rather clearly off to the right which is effectively more toward your back foot no matter what direction you swing.

Again, not to say anyone’s method is "wrong" but to explain why two seemingly conflicting methods are not really in conflict.

[rogue]

Re: Ball position

Bill and rogue - It’s not that the ball just "feels" further back with an open stance, it effectively IS further back for the reasons I provided. IMO, the statement is true for any swing path. If you open the stance from square, by dropping the left foot, you are effectively moving the ball back in the stance. The path may determine the degree to which it is effectively moved back, but there is no swing path that will make the ball effectively more forward with this open stance. Keep opening the stance to 90 degrees to the target. It should be clearly obvious at that point that the ball is not in front of your body but rather clearly off to the right which is effectively more toward your back foot no matter what direction you swing.

Again, not to say anyone’s method is "wrong" but to explain why two seemingly conflicting methods are not really in conflict.

i understand what you are saying, maybe my point didnt make sense,

I didnt mean that the ball would literally move forward, its just a swing path change will change the physics of impact. let me explain

if your stance remained the same and ball was centre and swing path was straight, we will call this the standard
now if the same standard just changed swing path, becoming more in to out for example, this would shallow the club, and move the bottom of the swing further back and increase effective loft of the club (if we matched the clubface to this in to out swingpath. This is effectively the same as keeping the same 'standard' and moving ball forward - the changes to impact are the same. this is why in to out swingers tend to place the ball further back in their stance (good players) as it helps them keep the ball flight down and strike it ball first. Tell an in to out player to put the ball forward and unless they are very talented they will fat it or thin it as the low point in their swing is further back than a usual players.

when you drag your left foot back, the impact physics should not change at all, unless the act of dragging your foot back makes you swing more left through impact effectively doing the reverse of what i have decribed above (in which case your example would be correct).

its very complicated i know - i could explain this much better visually unfortunately. hope this makes sense

[dagosa]

Re: Ball position

i understand what you are saying, maybe my point didnt make sense,

I didnt mean that the ball would literally move forward, its just a swing path change will change the physics of impact. let me explain

if your stance remained the same and ball was centre and swing path was straight, we will call this the standard
now if the same standard just changed swing path, becoming more in to out for example, this would shallow the club, and move the bottom of the swing further back and increase effective loft of the club (if we matched the clubface to this in to out swingpath. This is effectively the same as keeping the same 'standard' and moving ball forward - the changes to impact are the same. this is why in to out swingers tend to place the ball further back in their stance (good players) as it helps them keep the ball flight down and strike it ball first. Tell an in to out player to put the ball forward and unless they are very talented they will fat it or thin it as the low point in their swing is further back than a usual players.

when you drag your left foot back, the impact physics should not change at all, unless the act of dragging your foot back makes you swing more left through impact effectively doing the reverse of what i have decribed above (in which case your example would be correct).

its very complicated i know - i could explain this much better visually unfortunately. hope this makes sense

You explained it well...never thought of it too much before that way. More good food for thought.