Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Instead of pondering you should do some research.

GoLow,

When I say I will ponder a subject I do not mean I will casually flitter it through my mind, I mean I will think about it and look into the subject matter, I would have hoped you had seen that in my modus operandi by now. Can we continue in a vain that accepts that we both may have something to add to this debate and not dismiss the others posts as if they were made without a modicum of consideration.

I am a Chartered Engineer and tend to research subjects that interest me, I do need time to do this and that is what I asked for. I thought and expected you would have deduced this from my post.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Full disclosure, I used to be a very close follower of Manuel de la Torre. The heir apparent to Ernest Jones Jr. I am well versed in his and Ernest Jones's principles including the one deriving from swinging a rock on a string. I have since learned much more.

According to some of the physics experts there really is no such thing as centrifugal force, though the word and term is often used. Centripetal force is indeed a "force", and a very powerful force. Ask NASA! Or an ice skater that does a pirouette. Can you feel it? You bet! Anyway, I'll let you research both centrifugal force and centripetal force with reference to the golf swing. There's probably no less than a few hundred web sites that will do a far better job of explaining how (and why) this powerful force is so important. Google search: "Golf centrifugal force" & "Golf centripetal force" and you should have enough good reading to last months!

It's called a rotating frame of reference. From the perspective of the player there "seems" like the club is pulling because you are rotating with the torque. It just doesn't exist though. You are pulling on the club inward... the club isn't pulling away it is just trying to go straight. The "feel" is not real. But I know I'm probably just going to be arguing about this until I'm blue in the face and it won't change your mind one lick. FWIW, I know plenty of physicists. I just had a nice conversation with Dr. Paul Wood from Ping. He knows Centrifugal force doesn't exist too. I don't really need to read any more about it online with references to it by people who aren't physicists. It's not a big deal, but it just isn't accurate.

Whenever there is a bending or twisting movement there must be a torque force being applied. I believe this is true with the golf swing also. However, as with getting a weight started swinging on a string the initial movement is small and unforced, not a muscular torque. This applies to the golf backswing too. It should "feel" as though there is no twisting, bending, or pushing in the hands on the backswing...and the blending of the backswing and downswing should have the feeling there's no sideways or twisting torque. In the downswing this same no manipulation feeling should be maintained through impact and the follow-through.

The problem is the club is not on a string, it's on a shaft. Show me a golf swing at full speed that matches the same rythm and speed of you swinging a weight on the end of a string that is the same length as a golf club. Ain't gonna happen. Sure it's POSSIBLE to swing a club like it's on a string, but it's actually more efficient to apply torque. Thats why the pro's do it.

What [club] movement that took place in the backswing, when it was swung to the top, will be duplicated in reverse on the downswing due to the beauty of centrifugal/centripetal force...with a few exceptions. The exceptions are minor, yet important - due to the downswing being faster the clubhead will lag as the connection with the club (the hands) are leading the swing - much like when a weight is swung on a string the weight lags the rotating hand movement.

With reference to a weight swinging on a string, you cannot apply any helpful bending or twisting energy into the string because it is flexible. But, more importantly, if you tried it would destroy the centrifugal/centripetal force and the weight would fall out of orbit. (There's that NASA stuff again!) Likewise, if you attempt to apply a twisting or bending movement to a golf club the same thing would happen. Have you ever seen a trick shot artist hit shots with a rope or chain for a shaft? How did the clubface square?

I still don't know how you are explaining how a clubface closes.

I responded to this above.

"Swinging" is using centrifugal/centripetal force!

The axis of the golf swing is located in the upper chest between the two arms, which are holding the club.

The golf swing is a double pendulum action with one part being the left arm and the other part being the clubshaft. The wrist acts as an unpowered swivel joint between the two parts much like a flail. When a double pendulum is moved in a straight line (linear motion) the angle between the left arm and clubshaft will not open. However, when the movement is an arc (radial motion), the angle opens. A [good] golf swing is first basically downward with linear motion (as the arms and club drops) and then outward with radial motion (as the torso rotates).

Ok, now you do realize that the first lever of a "double pendulum with an underpowered swivel joint" requires some braking in order to cause the second lever to swivel around the joint... right? So in your swing, you would have to slow down the hands.

However a more efficient method is to add torque at the shaft that is on plane with the first lever.

... *snip for time* ...

There is a mass of information on all these topics if you care to research the subject. It's very interesting to learn about and will almost certainly help you in your quest of understanding the golf swing.

I unfortunately am running out of time to answer the rest of this, but honestly you seem to be under the impression that I don't do any research. Frankly I know people in the industry and speak to them directly. People like Dr. Paul Wood as I mentioned above, Dr. Robert Neal who specializes in bio-kinetics, and Gary Blaisdell who was the VP of Slazenger. As I said I've also been in direct discussions with Manuel de la Torre, I've taught along side a man who has taped every Manuel de la Torre seminar since the late 80's and knows the philosophy inside and out. You know what he tells me? "Steve, you know more about the golf swing than I ever will."

I am not lacking in the knowledge, but I know there is always more for me to learn. The problem is I'd be wasting my time looking for it on the internet. Less than 1% of what you find is new to me or useful. I'm not bragging. Those who know me KNOW that I am not bragging. It's just a serious fundamental problem to the lack of actual TRUTH seeking in the industry. You can take that to NASA.

(FWIW, I used to help write the HFC's that NASA and the FAA use in all aero-space construction and I worked along side some of the smartest engineers on the planet.)

[keiko]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

While I was never a fan of DeLeTorre and even think some of his teachings are quite harmful, I do think we can over analyze things. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading about the physics of the golf swing but frankly I don't think any amateurs and most pro's would not benefit from knowing that stuff.
I like to keep things nice and simple because people learning which golf swing works for them, need simplicity.
After 50+years of playing and learning from many of the best teachers in the world, I can cite chapter and verse from many so called bibles of the game yet when trying to teach someone the fundamentals, I keep things very simple. As a result, my swing and that of those who follow my instruction is one of very few moving parts, simple and very efficient with outcomes that continue to bring satisfaction and success.

I have stated before that centrifugal force, according to physics experts does not exist...yet it is a very common term, and more commonly understood than is centripetal force. I don't know if you want perfection of word use (centripetal vs. centrifugal), or if you are of the belief that centripetal force is not a force or does not exist.

I'll let you advise Phil Newman at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center that the fine folks at NASA don't know what the hell they're talking about. If you have the time I'm sure they'd like hearing from you...or you can take that to NASA!
Here's Phil Newman's email address: panewman@lheapop.gsfc.nasa.gov

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/YBA/c...cular.html

http://www.nasa.gov/about/highligh...force.html

http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/tea.../vladimir/

.

[kbp]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

What powers the swing is the muscles of the body. What keeps the clubhead on an arc is a centripital force. What determines the path or plane of the arc is the direction set by the application of muscular force. What turns muscular force into speed is the leverage system of arms and club. What provides for release is inertia effecting the levers.

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

I have been thinking on this subject and reading various articles on what powers the golf swing. Something that is becoming clear to me is that clubhead speed does not come solely or even mainly from body rotation, I think body rotation creates a small amount of the energy required, maybe only around 15 % of it.

If you take a club, hold it in a golf grip then hold your arms straight out in front. Now rotate your body back and through at a speed where you can stay in balance using absolutely no arm or wrist manipulation, how fast did you rotate? Maybe 5 MPH. The clubhead at the end of your arms and clubshaft will have rotated a little faster, around maybe 10 MPH. Taking into account that speed cannot be produced where there is no speed it will require much more work to be created to propel a golf club to 100 MPH.

Here are a number of arguements to support this:

You cannot produce speed where there is no speed of a moving body part.
The hips move less than 2 miles per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
The lower body can and does rotate independent of the upper body.
Upper body rotation is less than one mile per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
Calculation of the inside moving the outside shows that body rotation can account for a maximum of around 5 miles per hour of club head speed. Because the lower body is moving independent of the upper body, the actual numbers will be less.
Body mass contributes less than 1% towards clubhead speed.
The arms (from muscular contraction) are capable of moving at speeds between 20 and 30 miles per hour.
The inside does not move the outside.
Arm speed produces approximately 85% toward club head speed. It takes muscles and strength to move the arms.

The hands (from wrist action - extension and rotation) are capable of obtaining the highest speed in the human body. The hands from forearm and triceps contraction is the bodies only high speed moving part.
The greater percentage of high speed movement of objects comes from high speed hand and wrist action (swinging a golf club, swinging a baseball bat, watch what moves the fastest when swinging a tennis racket, throwing a cricket ball, a baseball, or a javelin).

I have watched countless videos of tour golfers swinging a club and it is apparent that their arms and hands are being used to create clubhead speed.

[keiko]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Agree totally. To add, relaxed muscles move faster; tense muscles have fired(if at all) by the time impact occurs. Tension free arms and hands can be allowed to do their job.

I have been thinking on this subject and reading various articles on what powers the golf swing. Something that is becoming clear to me is that clubhead speed does not come solely or even mainly from body rotation, I think body rotation creates a small amount of the energy required, maybe only around 15 % of it.

If you take a club, hold it in a golf grip then hold your arms straight out in front. Now rotate your body back and through at a speed where you can stay in balance using absolutely no arm or wrist manipulation, how fast did you rotate? Maybe 5 MPH. The clubhead at the end of your arms and clubshaft will have rotated a little faster, around maybe 10 MPH. Taking into account that speed cannot be produced where there is no speed it will require much more work to be created to propel a golf club to 100 MPH.

Here are a number of arguements to support this:

You cannot produce speed where there is no speed of a moving body part.
The hips move less than 2 miles per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
The lower body can and does rotate independent of the upper body.
Upper body rotation is less than one mile per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
Calculation of the inside moving the outside shows that body rotation can account for a maximum of around 5 miles per hour of club head speed. Because the lower body is moving independent of the upper body, the actual numbers will be less.
Body mass contributes less than 1% towards clubhead speed.
The arms (from muscular contraction) are capable of moving at speeds between 20 and 30 miles per hour.
The inside does not move the outside.
Arm speed produces approximately 85% toward club head speed. It takes muscles and strength to move the arms.

The hands (from wrist action - extension and rotation) are capable of obtaining the highest speed in the human body. The hands from forearm and triceps contraction is the bodies only high speed moving part.
The greater percentage of high speed movement of objects comes from high speed hand and wrist action (swinging a golf club, swinging a baseball bat, watch what moves the fastest when swinging a tennis racket, throwing a cricket ball, a baseball, or a javelin).

I have watched countless videos of tour golfers swinging a club and it is apparent that their arms and hands are being used to create clubhead speed.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Agree totally. To add, relaxed muscles move faster; tense muscles have fired(if at all) by the time impact occurs. Tension free arms and hands can be allowed to do their job.

I agree to all of this as well.

But one still applies torque. If the application of that torque is too soon, we have clubhead throw away. If it is too late then we have clubhead drag. All of Go Low's lever systems require that the "blue circle" slow down in order for the "red circle" to catch up.

As I stated earlier, this is possible, but frankly less efficient at creating speed. The timing of the applied torque to the club would of course be crucial to both the squaring of the face and additional speed. But the same could be said about the braking of Go Low's lever system. If you decrease speed too soon the clubhead does not bottom out at the proper time and will swivel at the wrong time as well. If you do not decrease speed soon enough then you could potentially miss the ball entirely or top it. The hands would also be less likely to swivel around the 3rd axis and thus leave the clubface open.

I do not intend to get into a shouting match with Go Low, so I've decided to temporarily ignore his comments. I don't doubt he has some insight into the golf swing but it's coming off a bit too brash for my taste. What's funny is that it's the same stuff I used to say back in the day.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

I have been thinking on this subject and reading various articles on what powers the golf swing. Something that is becoming clear to me is that clubhead speed does not come solely or even mainly from body rotation, I think body rotation creates a small amount of the energy required, maybe only around 15 % of it.

If you take a club, hold it in a golf grip then hold your arms straight out in front. Now rotate your body back and through at a speed where you can stay in balance using absolutely no arm or wrist manipulation, how fast did you rotate? Maybe 5 MPH. The clubhead at the end of your arms and clubshaft will have rotated a little faster, around maybe 10 MPH. Taking into account that speed cannot be produced where there is no speed it will require much more work to be created to propel a golf club to 100 MPH.

Here are a number of arguements to support this:

You cannot produce speed where there is no speed of a moving body part.
The hips move less than 2 miles per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
The lower body can and does rotate independent of the upper body.
Upper body rotation is less than one mile per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
Calculation of the inside moving the outside shows that body rotation can account for a maximum of around 5 miles per hour of club head speed. Because the lower body is moving independent of the upper body, the actual numbers will be less.
Body mass contributes less than 1% towards clubhead speed.
The arms (from muscular contraction) are capable of moving at speeds between 20 and 30 miles per hour.
The inside does not move the outside.
Arm speed produces approximately 85% toward club head speed. It takes muscles and strength to move the arms.

The hands (from wrist action - extension and rotation) are capable of obtaining the highest speed in the human body. The hands from forearm and triceps contraction is the bodies only high speed moving part.
The greater percentage of high speed movement of objects comes from high speed hand and wrist action (swinging a golf club, swinging a baseball bat, watch what moves the fastest when swinging a tennis racket, throwing a cricket ball, a baseball, or a javelin).

I have watched countless videos of tour golfers swinging a club and it is apparent that their arms and hands are being used to create clubhead speed.

It's a good summation Brian. I applaud your description.

I would say though that there is something to be said about the kinetic link and it's starting from the shear forces acting on the ground with your feet.

Simple proof of that is how many times have you hit a bad shot (or at least one that goes less distance) when your back foot slips. It's not just a matter of repositioning your swing axis, but the fact that you have to start the kinetic chain a bit further up in the body.

Lastly, they have measured the forces acting on the ground with force plates to determine what kinds of pressure the feet exert to the earth in the golf swing. (note, this is not about where the weight of the player is but the FORCE acting to the ground... big difference)

There is undoubtedly an increase of pressure on the right foot as the player transitions from backswing to forward swing. In fact it is the most pressure they found applied to the ground at any time of the golf swing. That pressure and force turns into kinetic energy. It may not cause the hip to turn very fast, but when you build the rest of the swing upon it you can generate a little bit more speed. We may be talking about only 2 to 10 mph depending on the swing of the player.

[kbp]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

The only thing that can POWER the swing is muscular force. The power is applied to a rotating lever system which acts as a transmission to increase the speed.

The transmission adds zero power. Centripital force and inertia add zero power. Joints and levers and hinges add zero power. They all contribute to CONVERTING power to speed.

Relatively slow core movements can result in very fast clubhead speed. It is not as simple as sticking the club out rigidly in front of you and turning your core. This completely ignores the levers. Iron Byron. Tricep flexion and other muscular forces like "throwing" can produce speed at the clubhead if they don’t upset the lever system, but muscular speed is always at the mercy of leverage.

Further, in the context of an efficient lever system, you must increase applied muscular power to increase speed. Many methods and sources are valid as long as your lever system is still operating properly.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

The only thing that can POWER the swing is muscular force. The power is applied to a rotating lever system which acts as a transmission to increase the speed.

The transmission adds zero power. Centripital force and inertia add zero power. Joints and levers and hinges add zero power. They all contribute to CONVERTING power to speed.

Relatively slow core movements can result in very fast clubhead speed. It is not as simple as sticking the club out rigidly in front of you and turning your core. This completely ignores the levers. Iron Byron. Tricep flexion and other muscular forces like "throwing" can produce speed at the clubhead if they don’t upset the lever system, but muscular speed is always at the mercy of leverage.

Further, in the context of an efficient lever system, you must increase applied muscular power to increase speed. Many methods and sources are valid as long as your lever system is still operating properly.

Unimaginably spot on! Great post.

Just wait til they figure out angular momentum doesn't increase clubhead speed one lick.

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Ben Witter hitting 300 yard drives. Not much lower body help here.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Ben Witter hitting 300 yard drives. Not much lower body help here.

Ok, but how much further and how much more clubhead speed does he get when he's on his feet? Not only that I still think there is some force he is applying to the ball through his knees to help add torque to the core muscles.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Ringer,

I'm not sure why you chose only to single-out "angular momentum" when saying that it; "doesn't increase clubhead speed one lick!" Why didn't you include: lever systems, wrist cock, hinges, joints, lag, etc., etc - everything except actual muscle force? "Angular momentum" is a physical quantity. Does it increase clubhead speed? Of course not. But, just like centripetal/centrifugal force is a feel of the effects of inertia - if you are going to rotate your body and swing a golf club in a circular path, your swing better have it!

Because a TON of modern theory is based around "sustain the lag".

I don't think it helps anyone here with their golf swing to be so picky about explaining certain words or terms to the absolute. For example, I think it is perfectly appropriate to say that having wrist cock will increase clubhead speed. Is that an absolute accurate statement? No! Because "wrist cock" is a part of a lever system and a lever system (in and of itself) has no power to produce speed...because the only thing that can actually produce speed is muscle force. But...honestly Ringer, don't you think that people here already understand that without using his muscles the body would remain static and the golf club they're holding in their hands would have no clubhead speed at all? I betcha do!

See above.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Yes. So? Instead of just making short comments, don't you think it would be helpful to people reading your posts for you to explain your views with a little bit more detail?

Not really. By this time they either get it or don't. If they don't get it then they'd probably be asking me questions by now. They aren't. Which leads me to believe you are the only one still confused. Not meant as an offense to you, I like to share information. But I don't honestly think that's quite your goal at this point.

Is sustaining the lag is a good thing or bad thing in your opinion? Sustain it how? By physically (manually) sustaining or holding the lag beyond some point-in-time? Or allow the swing itself to sustain the lag? Or sustain the lag until some particular point or place within the circular arc? Or maybe you think the lag should not be sustained...or that there's no such thing as lag, thus it cannot be sustained? What is your view?

It's bad to intentionally sustain the lag. I don't know how I could have made that any clearer. It has no useful purpose in hitting the ball further. There is no SCIENTIFIC evidence to say it does. Yet modern instruction has held it as a linchpin to good mechanics.

I don't see that you've addressed my comment, nor answered my question! Let me ask it again...

I don't think it helps anyone here with their golf swing to be so picky about explaining certain words or terms to the absolute. For example, I think it is perfectly appropriate to say that wrist cock will increase clubhead speed. Is that an absolute accurate statement? No! Because "wrist cock" is a part of a lever system and a lever system (in and of itself) has no power to produce speed...because the only thing that can actually produce speed is muscle force. But...honestly Ringer, don't you think that people here already understand that without using his muscles the body would remain static and the golf club they're holding in their hands would have no clubhead speed at all? I betcha do!

So you don't think being precise is important, I think we get it.

I have a different take because knowledge is almost by definition being MORE precise. My job is to know more than the student and convey only the little bit that pertains to them. Throwing out the details means I can only become a one trick pony. That's what leads to "method teaching" instead of 15 minute lessons that actually fix someone.

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

This subject is very interesting to those that wish to debate and/or consider more about the golf swing and its actions and reactions. I would politely ask that all contributing refrain from any negative personal comments to other posters. It is correct and healthy to question others views, this is constructive debate.

This is not posted as a criticism of any individual, rather an effort on my behalf to keep us all on track.

Thanks in advance.