Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Ringer, since you never (or rarely) offer any advice, because you much prefer to [ask questions and then] argue with people, why don't YOU "describe what makes the ball curve and what impact conditions are required to make what spin"? But Ringer - instead of doing it in this thread, please START A NEW THREAD instead of hijacking this thread. Be helpful, not argumentative!!! You have a tendency to not THINK!

I know how difficult it is to contain yourself when people don't agree with you. For years I battled a temper and still sometimes do to this day. But lashing out is not going to resolve any of this.

I ask questions of people to figure out what they mean. If it's something I disagree with then I will state that I disagree. Sometimes the reason why I disagree is very complicated and so I either shorten it down to little bits that people will hopefully digest, or I may forgo explaining it at all. I try my best to explain as much as I can when I can. But you need to understand something. I get PAID for advice. You want me to give it away freely.

I do give away a LOT of advice for free. Not just on this website but at least a dozen others. If anyone wants to know what I know, they can ask me at any time. But here we're talking about what YOU know Go Low. This thread may have started out as your intent to help people but now your information is coming into question. You need to be prepared for this with real answers, not lashing out at those who disagree. Trust me, I've been in your shoes.

So, I am asking you to explain the ball flight laws because we want to know if you REALLY know your stuff. If you are right then I'll say you are right. If you are wrong then I will say you are wrong. Up to this point I haven't made any personal attacks about you so I would appreciate the same.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Sorry, GoLow. I should have made it clearer that my questions were meant to be rhetorical. The point being, we downswing flatter to allow the body to operate in a naturally optimal, athletic, instinctive way.

The drop does not allow the lag to be retained "deeper" into the downswing. By this logic, lifting Iron Byron up one foot and then lowering him back a foot before he turns would result in more lag deeper in his downswing. His "hands" are no closer to impact after the drop and neither are ours.

My summary. We do not drop to get on the impact plane. We are above the impact plane so we can drop. We do not drop to retain lag. By it’s nature, the drop doesn’t affect lag either way.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Ringer:
"Kinetic" means motion, not force. IMO, the kinetic chain (the chain of motion) should not start at the foot or ankle. It should start from the middle. This is true for many Tour pros. Look at "butt" side video. The contraction of their back and side appears before any foot action.

The ground force is a reaction. The action is from the middle. Trail side and trail lower back. The reaction increases as the action increases.

An exercise. Balance on your right leg only. Right foot flat. Left foot off the ground. Roll the right ankle to the left or move the right knee to the left without moving your head left. What muscles are being used? What happens to your trail side midsection and back? Keep moving the knee left as far as you can while still in balance. Is your trail side dropping? Are the hips tilting and then turning? Are the trail side and back muscles contracted and driving this motion? Is your right knee bending in and down? Are you really pushing OFF the ground to make this happen or are you using your midsection to bend and turn?

IMO, work from the middle. All you good players have figured this out. The drop, the squat, the sitdown, etc. but an accurate description will help those still on the journey. "Pushing off" gives the rookies a slide, an OTT, a standup, hitting from the top, etc.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

My advice to you would be to "think" before posting. I think it's safe to say that for you to attempt to explain (or correct) kenesiology terms or physics is not "your" strong suit. Further and most important, nothing you said was of any help whatsoever to golfers! You forgot to "think", didn't you?

You need to hook up with Ringer. You two would make a nice pair.

Really? It isn't my strong suit? When I said this about you, I showed a few examples of how you are wrong. Do you have any examples? Oh you don't, because I am not wrong and it isn't a matter of opinion, it is factual science and not swing thoughts. That is what I thought...

It can be of great help to golfers. Why waste their time trying to use a force that doens't even exist and throw extra non-sense in their brain. Knowing what they are doing and why makes the golf swing much simpler.

Please, tell me where there is torque in the swing? Explain to me this force the clubhead has and how one could have non acceleration at or through impact and crush the ball? Because they have velocity, the ONLY factor you can change (pertaining to your argument). Acceleration is only important as it gives you a higher velocity, but you are using acceleration in the right way. The club has X mass, and you want to accelerate it, X amount of force is required for you muscles to make this happen. Another appropriate use of force. If you apply no force, it won't accelerate, if there is no acceleration, it is because you applied no force.

I am 100% fine if you or ringer want to point out where any of the above is wrong. But since I know you can't, you will just say something like. "Think befor eyou post, you are not helping anyone, this isn't your strong suit". Changing the subject or repeating what someone said worked in 3rd grade, but not anymore. If you want to refute someones point, you need to back it up with facts or examples as I have.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Ringer:
"Kinetic" means motion, not force. IMO, the kinetic chain (the chain of motion) should not start at the foot or ankle. It should start from the middle. This is true for many Tour pros. Look at "butt" side video. The contraction of their back and side appears before any foot action.

To create motion there must be an imbalance of force. Kinda just dealing with semantics here.

The first move forward that I witness with Hogan is a push off of his right foot onto his left foot. He is shifting. No turning yet, but shifting. He does it so early in fact, he hasn't yet completed his backswing. None-the-less the force he is using is the shear force of his foot on the ground to push his lower body forward. It's measurable with force plates, and we can witness the results when this force is not used when someone's back foot slips. Their distance is dramatically reduced.

The ground force is a reaction. The action is from the middle. Trail side and trail lower back. The reaction increases as the action increases.

Force reacting to motion? I think Newton would strongly disagree.

An exercise. Balance on your right leg only. Right foot flat. Left foot off the ground. Roll the right ankle to the left or move the right knee to the left without moving your head left. What muscles are being used? What happens to your trail side midsection and back? Keep moving the knee left as far as you can while still in balance. Is your trail side dropping? Are the hips tilting and then turning? Are the trail side and back muscles contracted and driving this motion? Is your right knee bending in and down? Are you really pushing OFF the ground to make this happen or are you using your midsection to bend and turn?

I'm not sure what you're explaining here. The muscles in your upper body compensating for what the lower body is doing to hold balance? I don't quite see how this is relevant to a genuine shift of a persons mass forward. To move it, you need force. If we aren't using the shear force of the ground, then what are we using?

Just hover a body in mid air and there's no way for it to move forward. It needs a FORCE acting on it to move it. For us, we use our feet on the ground and pushing with our legs.

IMO, work from the middle. All you good players have figured this out. The drop, the squat, the sitdown, etc. but an accurate description will help those still on the journey. "Pushing off" gives the rookies a slide, an OTT, a standup, hitting from the top, etc.

The only thing that can cause incorrect direction of motion, is incorrect direction of force. Those who have an OTT, standup, etc simply aren't applying force correctly. You cannot void them of "pushing" off because if you did they would never shift forward.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Really? It isn't my strong suit? When I said this about you, I showed a few examples of how you are wrong. Do you have any examples? Oh you don't, because I am not wrong and it isn't a matter of opinion, it is factual science and not swing thoughts. That is what I thought...

It can be of great help to golfers. Why waste their time trying to use a force that doens't even exist and throw extra non-sense in their brain. Knowing what they are doing and why makes the golf swing much simpler.

Please, tell me where there is torque in the swing? Explain to me this force the clubhead has and how one could have non acceleration at or through impact and crush the ball? Because they have velocity, the ONLY factor you can change (pertaining to your argument). Acceleration is only important as it gives you a higher velocity, but you are using acceleration in the right way. The club has X mass, and you want to accelerate it, X amount of force is required for you muscles to make this happen. Another appropriate use of force. If you apply no force, it won't accelerate, if there is no acceleration, it is because you applied no force.

I am 100% fine if you or ringer want to point out where any of the above is wrong. But since I know you can't, you will just say something like. "Think befor eyou post, you are not helping anyone, this isn't your strong suit". Changing the subject or repeating what someone said worked in 3rd grade, but not anymore. If you want to refute someones point, you need to back it up with facts or examples as I have.

Well there is torque in the golf swing. There are three axis's and since the swing is circular, there is an obvious torque creating motion around the axis.

1st axis is the swing center. Most people swing around an axis which is in their sternum. Their shoulders rotate around this axis point and the pulling effect of the left shoulder on the muscles of the left arm is what causes the arm to swing.

2nd axis is the axis of the wrist joint where torque CAN BE applied by either the left thumb, left thumb pad, or extension action of the right shoulder and arm pushing. Exhaustion of this torque too soon causes casting (and usually flipping), too late and you can miss the ball completely.

3rd axis is somewhat up for debate about it's specific location, but as a general rule it's down the shaft of the club. The toe effectively rotates around the heel of the club and this requires torque. That torque is usually applied through a "swivel" action of the left arm or a complimentary action of the right arm.

There are also other torques that are part of the kinetic sequence (chain/link) where the right leg pushes the right hip around an axis point in the pelvis, this rotation applies torque to the abs all the way up to the shoulders. There are other various small amounts of torque that really aren't important for the purposes of this discussion (torque on the ankles, knees, hip joints), but none-the-less they do exist.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Well there is torque in the golf swing. There are three axis's and since the swing is circular, there is an obvious torque creating motion around the axis.

excatly, around an axis, not about it. Like I said, you can more your hand in a circle (like the lasso motion) yet there is no torque, just a bunch of joints and levers moving in a linear manner exntending and flexing.

1st axis is the swing center. Most people swing around an axis which is in their sternum. Their shoulders rotate around this axis point and the pulling effect of the left shoulder on the muscles of the left arm is what causes the arm to swing.

yes, you can swing around an axis again, but unless the central axis is applying the torque force, there is none.

2nd axis is the axis of the wrist joint where torque CAN BE applied by either the left thumb, left thumb pad, or extension action of the right shoulder and arm pushing. Exhaustion of this torque too soon causes casting (and usually flipping), too late and you can miss the ball completely.

excatly what I said (I spoke of japanese sword). A human can apply torque to the club, just as one can apply torque to a lug or a nut. But humans themselves can't create torque IN THE BODY. You can't wind anything up and release with a torque force, you are using various levers. I think telling anyone to rotate or spin is just going to confuse and/or injure them.

Sadlowski is a good example of this torque force to the club as you see his left arm bend before impact as his left hand/arm is pulling as hard as he can and the right hand/arm is pushing. The central axis about which he is createing torque is between his hands.

3rd axis is somewhat up for debate about it's specific location, but as a general rule it's down the shaft of the club. The toe effectively rotates around the heel of the club and this requires torque. That torque is usually applied through a "swivel" action of the left arm or a complimentary action of the right arm.

same as above, we can impart torque on the club, but we can't create torque in our bodies.

There are also other torques that are part of the kinetic sequence (chain/link) where the right leg pushes the right hip around an axis point in the pelvis, this rotation applies torque to the abs all the way up to the shoulders. There are other various small amounts of torque that really aren't important for the purposes of this discussion (torque on the ankles, knees, hip joints), but none-the-less they do exist.

These are all seperate linear forces.

All these examples of torque you are speaking of are 'fixed'. You can't apply golow's MOI theory to them. the only way to change the MOI would be to change the shape of the club, or move your hands up and down the grip during the swing. Since there is no MOI, there is no need to hold any release in attempts to increase your acceleration through this MOI theory.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

excatly, around an axis, not about it. Like I said, you can more your hand in a circle (like the lasso motion) yet there is no torque, just a bunch of joints and levers moving in a linear manner exntending and flexing.

From Wikipedia - Torque ... is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis, fulcrum, or pivot. Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist.

Sorry man, it's non-linear. Push, pull, lift, drop are linear... torque is a force CAUSING an object to rotate.

yes, you can swing around an axis again, but unless the central axis is applying the torque force, there is none.

Sorry man, I think you just have a slight misunderstanding of what the term means. Again from Wikipedia:

" pushing or pulling the handle of a wrench connected to a nut or bolt produces a torque "

Not a big deal really. Just trying to be accurate.

excatly what I said (I spoke of japanese sword). A human can apply torque to the club, just as one can apply torque to a lug or a nut. But humans themselves can't create torque IN THE BODY. You can't wind anything up and release with a torque force, you are using various levers. I think telling anyone to rotate or spin is just going to confuse and/or injure them.

I know what you're saying, but that isn't how I'm using the term. Think about it.

Axis point 1 is the sternum. Muscles in the upper abdomen and back are causing this turn. Those muscles "torque" the shoulders around that axis point.

Axis point 2 is the wrist. I specified that the left thumb, left thumb pad, or the extension of the right arm pushing on the shaft (around the wrists) is another torque. Same as pushing a wrench around a bolt.

Axis point 3 is the shaft. We twist the shaft so that the toe goes around the heel by imparting a rotation of our left arm or right arm. There are several muscles involved in doing this all up the arm or possibly as isolated as just the forearms.

same as above, we can impart torque on the club, but we can't create torque in our bodies.

Sure we can. In fact that's what arm curls are. Our lower arm bone rotates around the socket that is our elbow. Our biceps and triceps are the muscles exerting force on the bones. I just created a torque without any outside influence.

These are all seperate linear forces.

All these examples of torque you are speaking of are 'fixed'. You can't apply golow's MOI theory to them. the only way to change the MOI would be to change the shape of the club, or move your hands up and down the grip during the swing. Since there is no MOI, there is no need to hold any release in attempts to increase your acceleration through this MOI theory.

Oh heck... I don't go with the MOI theory anyway. Remember, he lumped me in with YOU... not the other way around.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Oh heck... I don't go with the MOI theory anyway. Remember, he lumped me in with YOU... not the other way around.

lol touché

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Without all the physics 101, as a single digit player for the past 15 years, I think of "Torque" in my swing as the resistance between upper and lower body when I coil on the backswing.
The uncoiling provides the impetus needed to swing the "rock on a string" or clubhead at the end of a shaft towards the ball.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Without all the physics 101, as a single digit player for the past 15 years, I think of "Torque" in my swing as the resistance between upper and lower body when I coil on the backswing.
The uncoiling provides the impetus needed to swing the "rock on a string" or clubhead at the end of a shaft towards the ball.

I would have no problem with this idea at all. It sounds great.

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Your link is the same info that has been written and posted thousands of times, nothing new except you are hawking it for profit.
I personally don't appreciate folks using this site to sell stuff, especially when folks can go to a real pro and get lessons instead of reading about instructions and guessing on their own.
I for one will not be reading any more of your posts.

Here's a great tip on how to grip the golf club. 90% of swing faults start at the setup position. You'd be surprised how fast you can cure your slice simply by gripping the club correctly...Read More

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Rory from the backside

The first MOVE is not at the foot, the ankle or the leg. It is in the back and side. The drop and the bump start in the core, the back and the side, not from a pushoff. Start your move from the middle. The weight is already shifting and THEN push to turn on the jets.

Hit balls balanced on your front foot. Tip of the back big toe barely on the ground for a little balance. Tee it up and hit some drivers. Do you really need a pushoff to start down? Most people you can still hit the ball pretty far with a little practice. Take a regular two legged stance and make the same basic move. Distance and accuracy from the wider two legged base.

Jamie Sandlowski's feet.
　
Rolling the ankle first? No. Moving knee to the target first? No. Side ways pushing? No. Lifting the heel first? Yes. A contraction from above. Then a push. Not a push to start.

Stand with all your weight on your back heel. Leg straight like his. Can you make that heel lift move with a push? Do you have to start moving the weight before you can lift? Where is the action originating?

(Please wait for the attachments to be approved.)

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Rory from the backside

The first MOVE is not at the foot, the ankle or the leg. It is in the back and side. The drop and the bump start in the core, the back and the side, not from a pushoff. Start your move from the middle. The weight is already shifting and THEN push to turn on the jets.

Hit balls balanced on your front foot. Tip of the back big toe barely on the ground for a little balance. Tee it up and hit some drivers. Do you really need a pushoff to start down? Most people you can still hit the ball pretty far with a little practice. Take a regular two legged stance and make the same basic move. Distance and accuracy from the wider two legged base.

Jamie Sandlowski's feet.
　
Rolling the ankle first? No. Moving knee to the target first? No. Side ways pushing? No. Lifting the heel first? Yes. A contraction from above. Then a push. Not a push to start.

Stand with all your weight on your back heel. Leg straight like his. Can you make that heel lift move with a push? Do you have to start moving the weight before you can lift? Where is the action originating?

(Please wait for the attachments to be approved.)

It may just be me but I see his left hip moving forward first while his arms are being carried along for the ride. To make that left hip move you have to push off the right foot.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Go Low, you were more active here than me, I feel bad that others who did benifit from you now lose that. I won't post on here anymore if you return. I don't why I decided to challenge your views in the manner I did, sorry for that.

well, hope you get this and decide to come back.

take care