Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

The fact is, in some of the numbers I've seen, the golfer is pushing off of the ground about 175% of their actual body weight. PUSH. It happens whether you want to admit it or not. Not everyone needs to try and push either, for them it's automatic response. But IT HAPPENS whether you like it or not.

I agree, you can't argue your findings, nor can you argue physics. But is there any way from your machine to determine how fast the weight was transfered? Ie. it was 175% but .4 seconds later it was 10% and the front was 230% in the long hitters. And those that actively pushed and were able to get 250% of their weight on the back foot, but the transfer happend in .8 seconds, they didn't hit as far. Or some were able to get 800% of their weight but it took them 1 seoncd to transfer, but they hit it the furthest, as even though it took them the longest, they also had the most weight. So you would need to get data to compute weight transfer speed to amount of weight percentage. Do percentage so size isn't an issue, so someone weighing 100lbs and getting 200% at .4 seconds will have half the swing speed of a man 200lbs getting 200% at .4 seconds.

Unfotunatley the study Mike Austing did didn't show the percentage of weight of the person, rather it showed percentage of total weight balanced between both feet. So in the backswing when he said 80% of his the weight is on the back foot, that 80% could have been 200% of the persons weight.

You are looking at data... but not all of it. It would be interesting to see if how much weight they pushed down is of any importance at all, or if it is just a dependant variable on how fast one transferes their weight.

When I jump, I just try to jump, it is possible in this subconsious use of muscles, I am actually pushing down harder than I could if I tried to consiously push down. But I am thinking, if I tried to push down, I could do it harder than if I just tried to jump higher. That would show that how hard you push down is not a dependant variable on how high you jump.

This is something I am not sure of, though I know it is easier to do it more subconsiously than consiously and golf I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy and consistancy to get a bit more distance... if what you are saying is in fact true and I do not believe it is... though I have no scientific data to say either way, but it seems you might. That would be awesome if you could test this out.

[BrianW]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Doesn't this all happen naturally if you let it? I would suggest it's the shoulders, arms and hands that propel the club into the back of the ball, the feet, legs and torso should act mainly as a stabiliser and will naturally do the job as long as we dont interfere and create unstable conditions. Stand with your feet together and make a committed swing, the ball will go a fair distance as the arms and shoulders are working as they should, the small lack of distance is due to there being less stability with the narrow stance.

I believe many golfers screw up their golf swing due to trying to do things with their bodies that they dont really understand but are told that they must do them to hit the ball far. Some of these things are: Start your swing from the feet up, fire your hips to create a fast swing, turn your shoulders against your hips (X factor).

Most of the actions required to hit a golf ball well are natural and the things that create poor shots are unnatural. For example, if you hit a nail with a hammer you would not swing the hammer from out-to-in, if you swing an axe into a tree trunk you would not try and rotate your hips to point forwards at impact.

I am not suggesting that there is nothing to learn in the golf swing, far from it, what I am suggesting is that we can really make things more difficult than they need to be.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

I agree, you can't argue your findings, nor can you argue physics. But is there any way from your machine to determine how fast the weight was transfered? Ie. it was 175% but .4 seconds later it was 10% and the front was 230% in the long hitters. And those that actively pushed and were able to get 250% of their weight on the back foot, but the transfer happend in .8 seconds, they didn't hit as far. Or some were able to get 800% of their weight but it took them 1 seoncd to transfer, but they hit it the furthest, as even though it took them the longest, they also had the most weight. So you would need to get data to compute weight transfer speed to amount of weight percentage. Do percentage so size isn't an issue, so someone weighing 100lbs and getting 200% at .4 seconds will have half the swing speed of a man 200lbs getting 200% at .4 seconds.

Unfotunatley the study Mike Austing did didn't show the percentage of weight of the person, rather it showed percentage of total weight balanced between both feet. So in the backswing when he said 80% of his the weight is on the back foot, that 80% could have been 200% of the persons weight.

You are looking at data... but not all of it. It would be interesting to see if how much weight they pushed down is of any importance at all, or if it is just a dependant variable on how fast one transferes their weight.

When I jump, I just try to jump, it is possible in this subconsious use of muscles, I am actually pushing down harder than I could if I tried to consiously push down. But I am thinking, if I tried to push down, I could do it harder than if I just tried to jump higher. That would show that how hard you push down is not a dependant variable on how high you jump.

This is something I am not sure of, though I know it is easier to do it more subconsiously than consiously and golf I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy and consistancy to get a bit more distance... if what you are saying is in fact true and I do not believe it is... though I have no scientific data to say either way, but it seems you might. That would be awesome if you could test this out.

Great post!

Whether or not the data is useful is of course something we should be looking into, and you bring up good questions about other data we should be looking for. I wish more people realized this is where golf could get so much better. Instead of just inventing things, use real data to form ideas and then ask more questions that make us look for more data and thus more concepts to improve with. Good stuff.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

IMO, the data presented only proves things that have never been questioned. There is a weight shift and there is force against the ground and both vary and both move from middle to back to front. This has never been in question.

The question has always been, "What should cause the drop." One theory says we should be pushing the hips sideways from the ground up. I say we should pull the shoulder and the hip toward each other, vertically, from the back midsection. I have shown in Ringer’s data that weight is moving OFF the back foot before there is any lateral movement below the hips. I have shown Kim and Rory forcefully pulling their shoulders down to their back pocket, arching and bending. I have shown Sandlowski clearly lifting his heel off the ground to drop with absolutely no pushing to start.

Ringer’s video shows a gradual and very uniform rate of loading from address to a maximum at the top and then a fairly abrupt unloading. What we don’t see is a more rapid increase in force at the top, a large spike, proceeding the unloading, that would indicate a large amount of additional pushing.

In the push-off theory, what would be the first muscle moved? What is the first body part to show movement?

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Doesn't this all happen naturally if you let it?.

I agree.... but since there are so many misteachings out there or even the illusion of the swing itself that can mislead. When someon learns how to walk, they try to watch others, but it doens't help, they still can't do it. It is not until one is about to fall on their face and their other leg catches them that they learn. Even an adult in an accident relearning how to walk teaches themselves from feel. If someone repeatedly told them, no, point your toes outwards, and showed them proof that that was correct, they could end up learning to walk bow-legged. Once you learn to walk bow legged, it is quite difficult to say to someone, walk normal, and them fix it on the spot. First you need to convince them it is bad for them, then you need to teach them how to not do it, this will take a WHILE.


So even though the legs work only to support, would you put a hockey player in the NHL if he didn't know how to skate? He could use his hands and arms great and could handle the puck increadibly.... when it ended up in front of him.

So since there are so many 'bowlegged' golfers out there you first must convince them it is wrong, then convince them, what you prescribe is right, then show them how to do it naturally again.

For me, the legs were the HARDEST part in my golf swing journey, I just didn't understand them. Though being 'self-taught', it was possible I figured out how to use my legs properly, but since my hands and arms weren't right, I knew something in my swing was wrong and probably in the process of figuring out what, I changed my legs. Even after figuring out how to use my arms and hands, my legs still give me issues. When I try to transfer my weight, I know my head and upper toro is heavy, and I will move that with my weight transfer. this is very wrong. I have to teach myself with little thoughts and for me it is just pick up my right foot in the FS and don't let my head move. This enables me to transfre my weight just as one would when walking. I realize it is so normal and seemingly easy, but if I want to kill the ball, and I think transfer my weight as fast/hard as I can and forget that little swing thought, you bet my head is going to go hard forward and I will fat the ball HARD.

Perhapse 3-5 years down the road I will no longer need this swing thought as it is such a natural move I may realearn the natural way. But for now, I need that thought.

Same with the hands, I feel that is extremly natural, and this is something I didn't learn ingrain too deep incorrectly and it was more easily fixed. They move extermly natural now and it takes no offort or swing thoughts.

IMO, the data presented only proves things that have never been questioned. There is a weight shift and there is force against the ground and both vary and both move from middle to back to front. This has never been in question.?

Maybe not in this specific thread, but it is highly debated in the golf world. The stack and tilters for one.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Yes, I was referring to these "givens' in the context of this thread and relative to the data Ringer presented.

Also, I assumed we were discussing all of this in the context of what is "most efficient" or "most natural" or "most powerful" or something similarly subjective.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Mazza sure did put up a fight for a 16 year old kid. Very impressive display, though I am glad he didn't win since he claimed amatuer status and no one would have won the money, I am glad someone got the money.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Doesn't this all happen naturally if you let it? I would suggest it's the shoulders, arms and hands that propel the club into the back of the ball, the feet, legs and torso should act mainly as a stabiliser and will naturally do the job as long as we dont interfere and create unstable conditions. Stand with your feet together and make a committed swing, the ball will go a fair distance as the arms and shoulders are working as they should, the small lack of distance is due to there being less stability with the narrow stance.

IMO, "Happens naturally" should be wiped out of any golf instructors lexicon. Just because some people can do it without thought does not make it a universal truth for all. This goes for me too though, I sometimes have had a habit to say something will happen naturally.

The idea of the arms doing the work and the body supporting it is very popular. I used to teach it myself. I loved the idea of a trebuchet on wheels. They found that allowing the wheels to move during the swing of a trebuchet actually improved the distance by up to 30%.

But scientists are good at what they do. The mere fact that pressure is exerted on the right foot that is greater than the weight of the player means SOME energy is going SOMEWHERE. When they attach all those nifty sensors to the different parts of the body, they can see where the motion is happening and when. There's also a lot of good bio-mechanists who understand the muscular and skeletal structure so that when a certain part of the body moves they can tell you what muscle it is that's causing it.

It's nearly unanimous that the lower body is the first to fire a muscle. In fact I don't know of one who says otherwise that has a genuine PH.D. They may exist but I have not seen any.

I believe many golfers screw up their golf swing due to trying to do things with their bodies that they dont really understand but are told that they must do them to hit the ball far. Some of these things are: Start your swing from the feet up, fire your hips to create a fast swing, turn your shoulders against your hips (X factor).

I would contend it's timing and direction that are more harmful than the "what". Of course there is also the incorrect application and poor timing of telling the information. I would not fix a slice strictly by talking weight shift if they're all over with place with their clubface. But I have witnessed teachers try it.

Most of the actions required to hit a golf ball well are natural and the things that create poor shots are unnatural. For example, if you hit a nail with a hammer you would not swing the hammer from out-to-in, if you swing an axe into a tree trunk you would not try and rotate your hips to point forwards at impact.

Again, what is natural for some is not natural for others. I just cannot agree.

I am not suggesting that there is nothing to learn in the golf swing, far from it, what I am suggesting is that we can really make things more difficult than they need to be.

This is quite true. Precise information and precisely the right time and ONLY as much as they need to know to execute it. Three things sorely missed by most of what I witness.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

IMO, the data presented only proves things that have never been questioned. There is a weight shift and there is force against the ground and both vary and both move from middle to back to front. This has never been in question.

Maybe not by you. But I'm sure you can find a few people who question it.

The question has always been, "What should cause the drop." One theory says we should be pushing the hips sideways from the ground up. I say we should pull the shoulder and the hip toward each other, vertically, from the back midsection. I have shown in Ringer’s data that weight is moving OFF the back foot before there is any lateral movement below the hips. I have shown Kim and Rory forcefully pulling their shoulders down to their back pocket, arching and bending. I have shown Sandlowski clearly lifting his heel off the ground to drop with absolutely no pushing to start.

Completely disagree. The right leg is straightening and the left hip is moving forward. THAT is the evidence of the right leg PUSHING the left hip forward.

In Rory's swing his left hip is moving far more than any right shoulder movement towards the right hip.



As for Sadlowski, I didn't see any picture or evidence but I don't know how a planting of the left foot would prove the right side isn't pushing the weight forward.

Ringer’s video shows a gradual and very uniform rate of loading from address to a maximum at the top and then a fairly abrupt unloading. What we don’t see is a more rapid increase in force at the top, a large spike, proceeding the unloading, that would indicate a large amount of additional pushing.

In the push-off theory, what would be the first muscle moved? What is the first body part to show movement?

That's because I don't think you quite understand how force plates work. They measure the force acting on the ground. As a person crouches toward the ground they actually apply LESS force to the plates. As a person pushes off the ground then the pressure increases.

If there was a compression of the right side as you suggest, we would see people getting lighter on the right foot.

[bill reed]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Hi Ringer
in the last clip you posted don't you think the right knee is always flexed towards the middle of the stance and never let all the weigh go back on it.
if you also look at Trevino and Couples you find they always have ther right knee with some presure keeping it felxed to the inside all the way through the backswing. it stops the hips sliding back and lets the hips slid forward easely on the downswing but without any real shoulder slid as in your clip.
Cheers
Bill

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Hi Ringer
in the last clip you posted don't you think the right knee is always flexed towards the middle of the stance and never let all the weigh go back on it.
if you also look at Trevino and Couples you find they always have ther right knee with some presure keeping it felxed to the inside all the way through the backswing. it stops the hips sliding back and lets the hips slid forward easely on the downswing but without any real shoulder slid as in your clip.
Cheers
Bill

No, not all of Anthony's weight gets onto his right foot and indeed the knee stays flexed. I don't know that "inward" is the direction I would say but certainly it works to put pressure on the inside of his back foot. I NEVER want a player to get all of their weight back and they should not be feeling any pressure on the outside of their back foot. They have gotten too far back if that's the case and they would need to roll back onto the inside of their back foot before they can push off of it.

When I watch Anthony's transition I see a pushing of the left hip forward toward the target and back away from the ball while keeping his shoulder turn almost perfectly still. You can see the creases in his shirt indicating quite the twist of his lower body from his upper body.

That move elongates the left lat muscle and allows him tremendous pull of his left arm downward.

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

We must not underestimate the importance of the legs in the golf swing. For instance, when performing a backswing pivot, the lower half of the body provides a stable base to turn against(X factor), the feet apply downward pressure into the ground, the left knee bends inward to and possibly behind the ball depending and to allow the weight shift, the right foot takes 80% of the weight transfer onto it's heel(heresy) and when transition occurs the right knee is driven towards the left BEFORE the downswing begins.
All this happens in less than 10 seconds.

No, not all of Anthony's weight gets onto his right foot and indeed the knee stays flexed. I don't know that "inward" is the direction I would say but certainly it works to put pressure on the inside of his back foot. I NEVER want a player to get all of their weight back and they should not be feeling any pressure on the outside of their back foot. They have gotten too far back if that's the case and they would need to roll back onto the inside of their back foot before they can push off of it.

When I watch Anthony's transition I see a pushing of the left hip forward toward the target and back away from the ball while keeping his shoulder turn almost perfectly still. You can see the creases in his shirt indicating quite the twist of his lower body from his upper body.

That move elongates the left lat muscle and allows him tremendous pull of his left arm downward.

[bill reed]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

hi
i feel that having the right knee flexed so you feel some tension in the inside right thigh, stops any backword slid of the hips, the hips sliding back destroys your swing and in maintaning the felx of the right knee and inside of the right thigh stops any sway back to the right of the hips and body.
it also stops any roll of the weight from the inside of the right foot to the outside on the backswing. keeps the feel that the weight is always on the inside of the right foot.
this helps in only letting the hips slid towards the target on downswing.
i do think this is very important and once you get the feel, you body feels stable and your swing controled.
Cheers
Bill

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

One way to feel the weight transfer is to do the feet together drill and hit half swing shots allowing the weight to move from left to right, I do this flat footed to feel the weight move to the right heel not the instep. Standing flat footed is a good way to feel the stability one needs in the swing.

hi
i feel that having the right knee flexed so you feel some tension in the inside right thigh, stops any backword slid of the hips, the hips sliding back destroys your swing and in maintaning the felx of the right knee and inside of the right thigh stops any sway back to the right of the hips and body.
it also stops any roll of the weight from the inside of the right foot to the outside on the backswing. keeps the feel that the weight is always on the inside of the right foot.
this helps in only letting the hips slid towards the target on downswing.
i do think this is very important and once you get the feel, you body feels stable and your swing controled.
Cheers
Bill

[bill reed]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

hi Keiko
i agree its a good way to get the feel of the weight shift. i keep the feel of the weight on the ball and heel on my right foot. with my very open stance (Trevino type swing. lot of forward hip movment and a push type shot) i have to stop my hips from sliding back, the only way i can do that is to keep the weight on the ball and heel of my right foot and not move back towards the outside of my right foot.
its done by keeping some tension in the right knee and inside thigh.
before i found out the importance of the right knee my hips were sliding back on the backswing and i was not shifting my weight forward on the downswing. i also had what i called lazy feet. little leg movement.
by keeping some tension in my right knee, just feeling some felx towards the left side not only stopped the back sway of the hips but got my legs working.
the result was a much smoother swing and one that repeats over and over.
if you do like you said, swing in your bare feet you feel the weight shift if you swing slowly or use a half swing.
when i realised how importent the right knee is in making your legs work for you i found my swing was better and my ball striking was better too.
i feel the right knee makes my feet work for me, i'm sure some other could feel the other way, where there feet make there legs work.
Cheers
Bill