Help Please

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

Again, I would need to see video to believe. I have golfed with a TON of people who have a LARGE slice ( BIG outside in swing with open club face) and I have never seen the ball start right. I definitely have no doubt that the two are definitely related - the open club face reduces the amount the ball starts left with their outside-in swing. I have seen many with a slight outside-in swing with an open face and the ball starts straight as well as a slight inside-out swing and closed face and the ball start straight.

The trouble I have with this is that this is how I hit draws and fades - swing path, feet and shoulders in line with the direction I want the ball to start, clubface aimed to where I want the ball to finish.

I don't want to disagree with you again Chuck, but again it's goes against everything we have all been taught for the last 1/4 century.

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

Gord,

I too see a lot of people with big slices but it is the clubface that causes this curvature. Anyone that has taught has seen a club that appears to be on plane yet the ball is starting in a different direction..that is because of the clubface. I had also been taught that these "ball flight laws" were gospel when in fact they are nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Again, I would need to see video to believe. I have golfed with a TON of people who have a LARGE slice ( BIG outside in swing with open club face) and I have never seen the ball start right. I definitely have no doubt that the two are definitely related - the open club face reduces the amount the ball starts left with their outside-in swing. I have seen many with a slight outside-in swing with an open face and the ball starts straight as well as a slight inside-out swing and closed face and the ball start straight.

The trouble I have with this is that this is how I hit draws and fades - swing path, feet and shoulders in line with the direction I want the ball to start, clubface aimed to where I want the ball to finish.

I don't want to disagree with you again Chuck, but again it's goes against everything we have all been taught for the last 1/4 century.

[sinuetblue]

Re: Help Please

I agree with Chuckevans completely (almost ). For all but those who have exceptional clubhead speed, the flight path of the ball is almost entirely dictated by the angle of the clubface. To hit a right to left draw (or hook, if you must) your swing path must be outside the target line. The reason is that the ball is compressed against the clubface and rebounces at much higher speed than the clubhead speed. That's physics folks.

[nanabush]

Re: Help Please

Well here's my 2cents... It might not be worth that even because you guys sure do know your stuff... The same thing happened to me tonight... 9 iron 160 yards or so to the green, got a good hit, the divot went left and the ball went straight right.

I was going to post this in a new thread but this discussion was so good and I hope that my response doesn't hamper the discussion but I noticed tonight when I got home that my right forearm was sore. The majority of my shots seemed to fade ever so slightly to the right. I am a RH golfer and the stronger grip should be on the left hand on top.

So this leads me to the question I was going to post and may have some bearing on why Ian's goes the same way.

If the bottom hand gripping the club to tightly could that be the reason why the divot goes left and the ball is PUSHED right?

You guys are definetly way past me on this one and if this theory is trash please just say so and disregard it...

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

The divot went left and the ball went straight...that means the clubface was looking where the ball but the clubhead was off plane and moving left of target. A tightening of the hands can inhibit the release action of the club and the hinge action of the left wrist which controls the clubface. You want to hold on tight enough so that the club doesn't twist but keep the wrists and forearms flexible....firm fingers - flexible wrists.

And yes, the ball does not leave the clubface at Impact but rather it compresses on the face and 3/4 of an inch later it rebounds off...that is when the clubface needs to be square to the selected target line.

I posted a link to picture showing how this happens either somewhere in this thread or possibly a different one. If you want to check it out Here It Is Again. This was taken with a strobe effect camera with a shutter speed of 100,000 FPS! - Note: the shaft is leaning forward - hitting downward, the clubface is slightly open - to allow for the closing at separation, the ball is compressed and has not left the face at Impact. All the these are what truly happens in a good golf stroke - not what we all read happens, all of that other garbage is just mis-information!

Yes you can have the square at Impact - if you want to hit pulls and hooks, yes you can "hit up" with a Driver - if you want to use a decelerating force. This picture shows us all the how the laws of force and motion apply to everything - including a golf stroke!

Well here's my 2cents... It might not be worth that even because you guys sure do know your stuff... The same thing happened to me tonight... 9 iron 160 yards or so to the green, got a good hit, the divot went left and the ball went straight right.

I was going to post this in a new thread but this discussion was so good and I hope that my response doesn't hamper the discussion but I noticed tonight when I got home that my right forearm was sore. The majority of my shots seemed to fade ever so slightly to the right. I am a RH golfer and the stronger grip should be on the left hand on top.

So this leads me to the question I was going to post and may have some bearing on why Ian's goes the same way.

If the bottom hand gripping the club to tightly could that be the reason why the divot goes left and the ball is PUSHED right?

You guys are definetly way past me on this one and if this theory is trash please just say so and disregard it...

[sinuetblue]

Re: Help Please

I've seen this picture, or one like it before. Isn't it a fantastic shot?! If you didn't see the picture, you would probably not believe how much such a hard ball can be compressed against the clubface. I have never seen, or heard of, shots taken from above to illustrate exactly what happens with either an open or closed clubface. What a pity, it would be very educational! Perhaps someone else has actually seen such pictures. If so, please post them.

[nanabush]

Re: Help Please

OK Ok... I think I am on something here. That shot I did last night I thought I hit extremely well but just way off target. The ball flight was straight, I aim left because the ball has a tendancy to go to the right.

Am I heading in the right spot to try to fix this by doing this?

1 - line up directly to target
2 - put ball a little more to the back of my stance *
3 - Use the same swing

* put ball back in stance because I am thinking. If the ball is being struck squarely and it's the after impact that is pushing the ball right. If I move the ball back in my stance just a little more then the club face should closed after impact???

Does this make sense to try or should I try something else..

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

Moving the ball backin your stance will promote more of an open face on your club. The best place for your driver alignment is inside the left heel (for righties). This will promote an upward blow to the ball with the face relatively square to the target.

[nanabush]

Re: Help Please

OH Sorry Gord, I should have mentioned the shot was an 9 iron about 160 yards and I took a nice swing, not too hard, it was pin high but off the green,

I drew a little picture hope it helps.

The red is club head, the divot is by the ball going left, my intended target is black line and ball flight is the green line. I guess the angle is little close but I was about 160 yards away and that left me about 30 yards away from the pin where I was aiming ...

So should I still try to move the ball back a little more in my stance?

[fratorriv]

Re: Help Please

Great reading and visual aids. I enjoyed it very much. I do understand physics and yes the ball should initially travel perpendicular to the clubface -in theory. But, just like a cue ball in billiard that can be struck with desired spin and make the ball travel at various angles; I believe the club would impart similar spins.

Even taking into account that the ball does not release until 3/4" after compression any angle over 10 degrees of open clubface would put the ball way to the right (adjacent fairway, lakes, etc) because angles increase in size (not degrees) as distance increases. So if a driver was hit 250 yards and the ball travelled perpendicular to a 20 degree open clubface the ball would end up further away from the hole than from the tee box to the flag. I guess what I'm saying is that the math doesn't scientifically sustain Mr. Chucks theory and teaching someone to control what happens during that micro-second of 3/4" decompression and release is impossible.

Therefore, I must agree with Ian and Gord: the more traditional explanations of "impact and path" -as the great masters of all times understood it and became masters by execution and feel without super cameras and science make more sense to us the majority of golfers that day after day crowd the thousands of overpriced golf courses around the world (that is another issue). One picture of the clubface compressing the ball proves very little. Also needed is a picture of the overly tight grip, muscles tensed, lack of confidence, years of habitually never squaring the clubface, and don't forget alignment where the feet and the shoulders nver seem to agree.

[Simon Woo]

Re: Help Please

Hi nanabush,

If your ball goes to the right in a straight line, would that seem to suggest that it was an issue of your swing path going from inside out?

[nanabush]

Re: Help Please

Hi nanabush,

If your ball goes to the right in a straight line, would that seem to suggest that it was an issue of your swing path going from inside out?

LOL Simon... that is what I am trying to figure... I thought (and not technically expierenced) is that I hit the ball straight, I lined up OK, but divot goes left ball goes right. I wasn't sure if it was swing or the DEATH grip I put on the club with my bottom hand.

I see this with most of my shots, they go right? Irons are straight right but drivers are a slice to the extreme big BANANA's if I put some power into it...
And since you said "SWING PATH" I think I am going to get my swing analyzed, it can only help.

Maybe I should post this under a new thread because i feel I am taking this away from IAN... SORRY MAN!!!!

[ph_kingston]

Re: Help Please

An excellent thread and it really goes to demonstrate the complexity of the golf swing and how we can become obsessed by theory. Ok, so let's get back to the absolute fundamental mechanics as Newton would have described them.

Forget for a moment about golf balls and clubheads as this will bring preconceptions but consider instead a flat-faced object, say a brick, travelling horizontally along a table and impacting against a sphere, say a snooker/pool ball that sits in the middle of the table. Now it doesn't matter whether the brick comes from the left, the right, up or down at the moment the brick and the ball part contact just after impact, the ball will travel perpendicular to the surface of the brick. Picture it for a moment and it makes sense.

Now let's consider the scenario where the brick delivers a glancing blow against the ball, say the face of the brick pointing left, but the brick travelling from the top right to the bottom left corner. Once again the ball will travel perpendicular to the surface of the brick but now we've imparted some spin on it which will cause the ball to deviate from its initial path as it travels away from the point of impact.

The basic mechanics holds true for golfclubs and golf balls. The path of the ball is determined solely by the relationship between the ball and the clubhead at impact (or more correctly separation). So, the following combinations are possible:

1) Clubhead square and on target line - straight shot
2) Clubhead closed and on target line - pull draw
3) Clubhead open and on target line - push slice
4) Clubhead square but travelling right of target line - draw
5) Clubhead square but travelling left of target line - fade
6) Clubhead closed and travelling left of target line - pull
7) Clubhead open and travelling right of target line - push

The last two cases are based on the clubhead being perpendicular to its direction of travel. If the clubhead is at an angle to this line then the other alternatives of a "pull slice" or a "push hook" can be generated.

You can produce all of these at the range by choking down on a 7-iron say and hitting little half-shots with exaggerated clubhead angles and swing-planes. It's fun to give it a go and helps build feel and control into your swing.

A long post I know, but basically I'm with Chuck on this particular point. I'm not downplaying the importance of the elements of the swing that we all work on as these affect how we deliver the club to the ball but a fundamental understanding of what happens at impact helps to put all of these into perspective.

Cheers

Paul