Confused: Is this right or what?

[mariner]

Quote from Leslie King golf Instruction -
"Here is a point about which I am adamant. THE LEFT HAND AND ARM IS NOT PROPELLED BY THE BODY AT ANY TIME IN THE SWING. or, putting it another way we don't turn the body in order to move the hand and arm"

Doesn`t this run contrary to all modern instruction chaps?
I was under the impression that the downswing unwinds from the feet upward with the arms following the body movement, but Leslie King says to initiate the downswing with the left arm and the shoulders MUST NOT go before the left arm. (I`ll post the link to the site below this one)

No wonder it`s such a bloody impossible game.

[mariner]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

http://www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/ten.html

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I think King, when he made that statement regarding downswing was correct as applied to an upright swing plane. I am experimenting with the one plane swing, at the moment in back garden only, it feels good, cant wait to try it out for real.Some very bad instruction given with much emphasis on holding back shoulders, as I said this was applicable when swing very upright .With the more rotary action of one plane swing I can initiate downswing with moving left shoulder sharply anti clockwise.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Great thread Mariner,

There was a thread a few months ago which asked "which hand dominant are you" there were loads of different answers.

Some feel they are left hand/arm dominant (me) some say left to the top then right through impact and some right......etc etc.

I feel my right arm and hand is not used for anything only guidance through the ball.

Ian.

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Too much right hand, how many times has that old cliche been trotted out? Tommy Armour said many club golfers are right hand punchy. Hogan, when asked about the role of the right hand, replied, I wish I had three of them.

[ph_kingston]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I've read a few of those lessons before and to be honest I have very mixed feelings about them. Some of his ideas I think "hmmmm, maybe" others I just don't believe in. To be fair, I've never really tried them out in anger and obviously never had a lesson from Leslie so I can't comment on whether they are effective or not.

What it does go to demonstrate though is that there are many, many theories on what is an effective golf swing. Personally I'm very much of a feel player rather than a swing mechanics student so I use what feels right for me and gives me consistent, good results. This means I'm often experimenting on the range, trying different things out to see if they work but at the same time keeping what, I think, are good swing fundamentals.

So, to prove the pudding, why not give some of Leslie's ideas a try and see what you think. I imagine they work for some people and not for others.

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I have tried the King method, for me, not very effective. Went on course yesterday and gave the one plane swing a try. Irons were really good, regained lots of length and boring flight with long irons.It does appear to be a very straight forward and simple approach. On the backswing I took the club a bit more inside, on the downswing I tried to arrive at impact with hips and shoulders square or slightly open .Still having trouble with woods but will perservere with method. Regards.

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

King is an advocate of the 2 plane swing. In this swing, King is right - the shoulders do NOT actuate the movement of the arms. The hips lead (creating the lag) and you drop your arms into the slot.

In a 1 plane swing, however, it's the uncoiling of the shoulders that 'whip' the arms back around through the plane.

So yes, in the King swing, the shoulders should not move the arms. In fact, I find the King swing as more of a 'pull down with the arms' swing.

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I came across the Leslie King method recently and have read/studied the entire "tuition 1" series. The teachings are in large part in great contrast to the "one-plane" body actuated system that I have tried to perfect over the past 10 or so years (with some limited success...always looking to improve), mostly by reading/practicing the Ben Hogan Five Fundamentals. It seems King's "lessons" attempt to totally discount the "body-driven" swing theory , going so far as to say, without mentioning Hogan or other proponents of that method, that the body-driven swing is not really the method even the great golfers like Hogan themselves used, but rather, they used the left arm/hand method without even realizing it.

So I ask, which (left arm/hand swing vs. body-activated) technique is most widely used in the modern era and are there well-known, current pros that use these contrasting methods? Which current teachers advocate the "King" method??

If they are both still widely used, but in fact different, how does one (like me) decide which method is "best" to commit to learning/practicing/learning?? Any input/advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Both swings are valid, you must choose, I.E, one plane or two plane, Ihave tried the one plane with encouraging results. Iam hitting consideraby longer and straighter. It does seem a much simpler swing with less moving parts. In essence concentration should be focussed on ensuring upper torso shoulders and arms work in harmony. I hit the ball best when I tried to ensure hips and shoulders were slightly open at impact. Why not give it a try .regards

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I largely agree with what King has to say.

I agree that the shoulders move out of the way of the left arm.

I agree that there's no real 'coil' in the muscles during the backswing. Otherwise, baseball players wouldn't preload if they were going to swing for the fences (if more power was created by a backswing).

I agree that proper grip and posture are keys to success (but every golf coach says that).

While I don't employ it, I agree that the breaking of the left knee (raising up the left heel) is good for limited-flexibility players; provided there is no reverse pivot involved. (My left knee breaking is an indicator to me personally that I'm overswinging and have reversed my pivot.)

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Thanks to both Audlyn and Low Post 42 for the replies.

It certainly appears to me that the one-plane vs. two-plane methods and the fundamentals that each incorporates is the first and likely most important "decision" one must make if trying to learn a sound and "correct" golf swing. The grip, stance, set-up, take away, backswing purpose and theory, start of downswing, completion of downswing, follow-through and finish are, in my humble opinion, quite radically different if one reads and tries to comprehend each. I suppose the conclusion needs to be there really are two ways to approach the golf swing, both somewhat widely used and I assume both with past and present success by the best players and teachers of the day.

Because I have tried to "live by" the Hogan theory, albeit through self-instruction and practice versus paid lessons, and continue to be a 10 to 14 handicap (for 12+years) with no real improvement, despite effort, desire and a fair amount of athletic ability, strength and flexibility, I believe it's time to experiment more with the two-plane swing.

In addition to Leslie King, are there other current and/or time-tested teachers and authors of the two-plane, left hand/arm swing that anyone could recommend. Thanks in advance!

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Sevesteve, you'll find that the majority of golf instructors teach a two plane swing.

Even in the one plane swing, there's a lot of 'left-armedness' going on.

I believe 'the golfing machine' (or TGM) is a right arm swing method.

[Simon Woo]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Where can I get a comparison between the two swings? I'm not even sure what kind of swing I am doing now. Does this have anything to do with the classic swing and the "natural body" swing?? I posted my swing video and Greg Willis has commented that I am only swinging with my arm. But I guess that's where I picked it up from, that the swing should minimize unnecessary movements (and perhaps start from the arm?). Whoa this is really getting confusing

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Buy The One Plane Swing by Jim Hardy, I got my copy from Amazon Books It gives a breakdown of both swings. Tried out oneplane with good results.Why not give it a try. Regards.