Hands further away from body at impact

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

hate to sound like a broken record but you need to read my post here http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/v...ead.php?t=4856
and here
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/v...?t=4814&page=2

go through and read the whole post

the reason you hands are further away at impact is because the cetrifigul force is straightening the relationship of angle between the club shaft and your arms.

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

If you look at my hand position at address to when it's at impact, you can see quite a bit of difference. I believe this is what is causing my out-to-in swing, and also causing my swing to be too rounded, causing the occasional hook. What causes this?

How can this corrected? What feeling do I need to have to get my hands close to the original position at impact? No matter how much I try getting the hands to this position, it never really does when I review on the video.

Koonl,

I think the initial question is "why do my hands come up at impact?" The answer is "because they are supposed to." (I think I'm reading this thread correctly, since it also went in a couple of other direction also.)

Shootin is right. The hands aren't supposed to return to the same position. Attached is a picture from Rich Beem at impact with an overlay from the initial position. You can see that he's come up.

To quote my favorite book, Swing Like A Pro, "during the late stages of the downswing, centrifugal force ties to pull you left arm and clubshaft into a staight line. This force actually pushes your hands to a higher position at impact than they were at address."

As for the swing path, I am attracted to McLean's ice cream cone zone, which I've drawn on the picture. Your club can be anywhere in this zone and be considered in the "normal" range.

You may ask, "well what about my Faldo picture." (I think this is who you used.) Unfortunately, golf has some odd swings. Yes, Faldo would return very close to address.

Finally, look at the edges of the mat you are hitting off of. It look trapazoid, which means you have a short focal length on the camera. This will also cause your swing path lines, that you put on your photo, look distorted. To see some of this in action, take the first couple of frames when you are just starting your take-away. Initially, the club head (if you have a short focal length) will appear to move right because it is getting closer to the camera, even though it is not moving right.

Most the pros video is taken with a telephoto lens, which removes this effect.

Good luck,
Theo

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Dear Koonl,

One thing I notice too, that is problematical, is in picture #4. During this position in your downswing, you will notice that the club is above your forearm. This is incorrect. The correct position is for the club to be directly over your forearm.

I think this indicates you are coming over the top and prevents you from striking the ball correctly. I would play with this a little and see what happens when you work on having your club come over your forearm in the downswing. I think you can practice this in slowmo to get the feel of it first.

Good luck,

Chessbum...

I think you'll find quite a few people with the iron above their forearm.

Here's one of the Big Easy. However, I absolutely agree that the lower you drive this, the less chance you'll have of an Outside In Swing.

Theo

[koonl]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Koonl,

I think the initial question is "why do my hands come up at impact?" The answer is "because they are supposed to." (I think I'm reading this thread correctly, since it also went in a couple of other direction also.)

Shootin is right. The hands aren't supposed to return to the same position. Attached is a picture from Rich Beem at impact with an overlay from the initial position. You can see that he's come up.

To quote my favorite book, Swing Like A Pro, "during the late stages of the downswing, centrifugal force ties to pull you left arm and clubshaft into a staight line. This force actually pushes your hands to a higher position at impact than they were at address."

As for the swing path, I am attracted to McLean's ice cream cone zone, which I've drawn on the picture. Your club can be anywhere in this zone and be considered in the "normal" range.

You may ask, "well what about my Faldo picture." (I think this is who you used.) Unfortunately, golf has some odd swings. Yes, Faldo would return very close to address.

Finally, look at the edges of the mat you are hitting off of. It look trapazoid, which means you have a short focal length on the camera. This will also cause your swing path lines, that you put on your photo, look distorted. To see some of this in action, take the first couple of frames when you are just starting your take-away. Initially, the club head (if you have a short focal length) will appear to move right because it is getting closer to the camera, even though it is not moving right.

Most the pros video is taken with a telephoto lens, which removes this effect.

Good luck,
Theo

Thanks for those comments - I have noticed several pros also come in steeper upon impact. Many books reference that the shaft at address/impact should be the case, or that this match will guarantee parfect strike - The Leadbetter/Hogan book illustrates this with Nick Price as an example. I like McLean's teaching method - he lets you know how much margin of error you have at certain postions in the swing. I suppose if I did get the plane perfect throughout, I wouldn't be on this forum and will be busy playing on Tour!

My camera is about 5 yards behind me. I am aware most shots of the pros are a lot further away, probably using expensive telephoto lenses which maintains persepective and reduces distortion. Is it best to set it far back as possible, and use the zoom?

[koonl]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

I think you'll find quite a few people with the iron above their forearm.

Here's one of the Big Easy. However, I absolutely agree that the lower you drive this, the less chance you'll have of an Outside In Swing.

Theo

You're right, if you look at the Five Fundamentals of Hogan with David Leadbetter, Hogan's shaft is actually sitting on top of the foream, and Leadbetter says that this is the characteristics of his flat swing. I have a library of pros on camera, and most are not as flat as Hogan. A good thought to try and achieve though, in order to get it coming in flatter if you tend to go over the top.

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

somewhere between pic 4 and 5 the club shaft should shift to the forearm plane/or elbow plane

[doogkie]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

what exactly do u mean by forearm plane?

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

at impact the right forearm and club should be in almost a direct line, this is called the elbow plane Look here http://www.golfdigest.com/swingseque...ukedonald.html

Go down to the pictures, look in the middle row at picture six and notice the straight line. There is a point in the downswing where MOST all good players reach the elbow plane and it is before impact. THis is a position that needs not be thought about though because it is usually attained by swing mechanics that happen before this point.

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

I think you'll find quite a few people with the iron above their forearm.

Here's one of the Big Easy. However, I absolutely agree that the lower you drive this, the less chance you'll have of an Outside In Swing.

Theo

that picture is too soon in the down swing, can you post one 1/2 way between there and impact?

go look at the angle from behind here
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...owerswing.html
study the ernie pics in the third row down and look at pic 5 and 6, at five he is almost there and gets there before pic 6
also look at wie in picture 6
look at howell here in pic 5 http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...201howell.html

furyk gets there between pic 5 and 6 and he has a very upright swing
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...8jimfuryk.html

appleby has a great pic scroll down to a behind view and look at 5 and 6, he is almost there at 5 http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...09appleby.html

scott is VERY upright so look at pics 5 and 6
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...0403scott.html

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

let me clarify this a little more
at address draw a line from the sweet spot of the club through the elbow and up as high as you want, this is what the elbow plane is and at some point the downswing, no matter if you are a flat or upright swinger, MOST ALL good players get to this plane before impact, an exception would be David Toms I believe.

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Thanks for those comments - I have noticed several pros also come in steeper upon impact. Many books reference that the shaft at address/impact should be the case, or that this match will guarantee parfect strike - The Leadbetter/Hogan book illustrates this with Nick Price as an example. I like McLean's teaching method - he lets you know how much margin of error you have at certain postions in the swing. I suppose if I did get the plane perfect throughout, I wouldn't be on this forum and will be busy playing on Tour!

My camera is about 5 yards behind me. I am aware most shots of the pros are a lot further away, probably using expensive telephoto lenses which maintains persepective and reduces distortion. Is it best to set it far back as possible, and use the zoom?

Koonl,

I'm guessing that most pro shoots are taken with equavalent to 80mm-150mm in my Cswing library. V1 Home seems to vary all over the place. So the answer on this one, is that you don't want to be back as far as possible, since this will also "distort."

What I should do is go down to a range with distance behind and experiment with two clubs on the ground that are laid out parallel on the toe line and the ball line..

A 30mm focal length will look like /\

A 400mm focal length will look like ||

There is some medium in between!

Theo

[doogkie]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

ah ha, i see, no wonder i couldnt do toms little bent right elbow swing with the body thingy that i seen in a golf digest swing thingy, i think they said trevino did it too or maybe dont listen to me.....

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

that picture is too soon in the down swing, can you post one 1/2 way between there and impact?

go look at the angle from behind here
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...owerswing.html
study the ernie pics in the third row down and look at pic 5 and 6, at five he is almost there and gets there before pic 6
also look at wie in picture 6
look at howell here in pic 5 http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...201howell.html

furyk gets there between pic 5 and 6 and he has a very upright swing
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...8jimfuryk.html

appleby has a great pic scroll down to a behind view and look at 5 and 6, he is almost there at 5 http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...09appleby.html

scott is VERY upright so look at pics 5 and 6
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...0403scott.html

Guys,

I love the Golfdigest swing libraries also.

I believe that all the libraries above are with the drivers. Since drivers have a more shallow swing path (or for you Hogan fans swing plane), you would expect the shaft to be closer to the arm.

Here's a picture of JP Hayes with 6 iron and driver, and you can see the difference (the next fame in both is past the forearm, so this is the last possible frame.)

I have also overlayed the top of the swing, which shows the difference at the start. I also scribbled some lines showing the general angle of the swing plane.

If I have time, I'll look for others, but in general, I think the principle is that most pros have less chance of a dividing the forearm with an iron, and it becomes progressively less as the irons get shorter.

Shootin,

I am vaguely familiar with the elbow plane. (A Golfing Machine/Homer thing, I believe.)

What are some of the key attributes to remember about the elbow plane? Perhaps with a bit of background, I can study some more. (Or I'll go dig at Manzella's site.)

Theo

Theo

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Shootin,
If I have time, I'll look for others, but in general, I think the principle is that most pros have less chance of a dividing the forearm with an iron, and it becomes progressively less as the irons get shorter.
Theo
Theo

Incorrect theo. The elbow plane, which is established at address, also becomes more upright the shorter the club so while the swing plane has become more upright so has the elbow plane. I am not sure what you meant by when you said the next frame is past the forearm? please explain. Also, go on manzellas and ask some of these questions, I dont have access to good pictures and many of them do. Jb will get down to the elbow plane with that iron, probably half way between where he is and impact unless he is in the VERY MINOR percent of pros who do not get there. can you post his next two pictures?

[doogkie]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

oh no not another post war between yall


hehe last one was fun