Hands further away from body at impact

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

what, my last post was not civil? I tried to be

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

oh no not another post war between yall


hehe last one was fun

Yes, but I'm an old man, and fighting is for the younger more virile. I'll sit this one out.

The'

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Incorrect theo. The elbow plane, which is established at address, also becomes more upright the shorter the club so while the swing plane has become more upright so has the elbow plane. I am not sure what you meant by when you said the next frame is past the forearm? please explain. Also, go on manzellas and ask some of these questions, I dont have access to good pictures and many of them do. Jb will get down to the elbow plane with that iron, probably half way between where he is and impact unless he is in the VERY MINOR percent of pros who do not get there. can you post his next two pictures?

Next two pictures.

Can you use these to explain?

Thanks,
Theo

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Next two pictures.

Can you use these to explain?

Thanks,
Theo

More. On these, I took the frame closest to impact, and bisected the forearm.

Theo

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

if you go back, in a particular post I said let me clarify because saying forearm plane/elbow plane is incorrect. It is the elbow plane that most pros shift too and that is a plane line that should be established at address, and for the sake of analyzation it should be drawn at the address positin and imposed in the pics because at some points in their swing the pros may get off the elbow plane, only to return to it before impact. This is how you achieve an inside/square/inside golf swing. As you know, camera angle in the golf swing is very important and most of the camera angles in those photos are off. The golf digest photos are pretty good but very few are with the irons. Seriously, go over to manzella and discuss it there, many people there have the pics

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

if you go back, in a particular post I said let me clarify because saying forearm plane/elbow plane is incorrect. It is the elbow plane that most pros shift too and that is a plane line that should be established at address, and for the sake of analyzation it should be drawn at the address positin and imposed in the pics because at some points in their swing the pros may get off the elbow plane, only to return to it before impact. This is how you achieve an inside/square/inside golf swing. As you know, camera angle in the golf swing is very important and most of the camera angles in those photos are off. The golf digest photos are pretty good but very few are with the irons. Seriously, go over to manzella and discuss it there, many people there have the pics

Shootin,

They are like sharks at Manzella. I'm afraid to post as I will be eaten, since I don't speak "acumilator #3" and all that stuff.

I am curious about the Golf Machine stuff, and I think I do understand what you are saying. (Okay, and I did skim some Manzella stuff.)

1. Take a picture at setup.
2. Draw a line from club head through elbow
3. The hands at impact, will raise up to this line.
4. Thus we have a "normal" parameter for how high the hands should raise.

Did I get the Golf Machine idea correct?

Thanks,
Theo

[golfonenemesis]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Ass-ole=brian manzella
Don't bother with this site, its s--t
This guy thinks he's God's gift and has no credentials.

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Shootin,

They are like sharks at Manzella. I'm afraid to post as I will be eaten, since I don't speak "acumilator #3" and all that stuff.

I am curious about the Golf Machine stuff, and I think I do understand what you are saying. (Okay, and I did skim some Manzella stuff.)

1. Take a picture at setup.
2. Draw a line from club head through elbow
3. The hands at impact, will raise up to this line.
4. Thus we have a "normal" parameter for how high the hands should raise.

Did I get the Golf Machine idea correct?

Thanks,
Theo

you are right, they would eat you
the purpose of the elbow plane is not where the hands will be but where the club will come into the ball

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

you are right, they would eat you
the purpose of the elbow plane is not where the hands will be but where the club will come into the ball

Shootin,

Ignoring the primary purpose, which you have above, just using your logic.

1. Draw an elbow plane
2. This is the club into the ball.
3. Since the right forearms, hands, and shaft create a straight line at impact on the elbow plane, the hands will therefore be on the elbow plane at impact.

Is this incorrect using the GM methods, OR are you simply saying this isn't what the elbow plane is commonly used for. I believe you are saying the later.

The reason why I bring this up is to establish an answer on the original question. So hands should come up to the Elbow plan at impact.

Correct?

Theo "Yes, I am on Vacation this week" Logic

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

since the elbow plane is a straight line, and the arms and club shaft do not reach a straight line condition untill follow through, a point around a foot or so past the ball, the arms, hands, and clubshaft are not required to be in a straight line at impact, but the club shaft should be on the elbow plane. To further explain, since there is lag at impact and a cocked left wrist untill just before impact, it is not possible to have this straight line condition untill, as stated, after impact when the left wrist is in an un cocked position and no lag. Clearer now? And no theo, it is not logic, it is how it is. Dont assume, like you did with hogan and his short thumb, that I make this up.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

If you view the downswings of top players there are definitely variances in the positions of the club shaft relative to the arms and torso. Also, release points between the wrists and arms vary. Same goes with the position of the hands relative to the body at impact. I would not be overly concerned with this.

I think the bigger issue is the lack of hip rotation at impact. This is where the skilled players are extremely similiar with their hips being very open to the target line at impact. My guess is that your downswing is being initiated from the top. I am always amused when people refer to the dreaded "over the top" move as the ultimate swing killer. It does not necessarily have to be "over" the top. "under from the top", "dead on plane from the top" will destroy it just as well. The problem is the sequencing and balance that is ruined by initiating the first move in the through swing with the upper body. This translates into lack of power and and very inconsistent direction as you are forced to swat the ball with your wrists.

The best descripiton and most inspirational passage on the importance of the transition I have read is in the book Swing Like A Pro. I recommend it.
The best drill I have "felt" for developing the correct transition is to use a driver and swing to the top of the backswing position and stop. Have a friend grab the club shaft firmly with both hands. Then, try to intiate your downswing by using your legs and hips. If you are accustomed to hitting from the top, this will be a real eye (and lower body) opener. By developing the proper sequencing, you will be amazed by the amount of time that you feel you will have before striking the ball. This is the sensation of the late hit you hear so much about.

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

since the elbow plane is a straight line, and the arms and club shaft do not reach a straight line condition untill follow through, a point around a foot or so past the ball, the arms, hands, and clubshaft are not required to be in a straight line at impact, but the club shaft should be on the elbow plane. To further explain, since there is lag at impact and a cocked left wrist untill just before impact, it is not possible to have this straight line condition untill, as stated, after impact when the left wrist is in an un cocked position and no lag. Clearer now? And no theo, it is not logic, it is how it is. Dont assume, like you did with hogan and his short thumb, that I make this up.

Shootin,

I am not trying to trick you, but once I knew that you were being coached by a TGM type guys, I suddenly figured out where you were coming from, and (dare I say it) your distaste for conventional golf instructors.

Now, I am just trying to get a handle on TGM methodology.

Thanks,
Theo

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

[Stuff Deleted]

The best descripiton and most inspirational passage on the importance of the transition I have read is in the book Swing Like A Pro. I recommend it.
The best drill I have "felt" for developing the correct transition is to use a driver and swing to the top of the backswing position and stop. Have a friend grab the club shaft firmly with both hands. Then, try to intiate your downswing by using your legs and hips. If you are accustomed to hitting from the top, this will be a real eye (and lower body) opener. By developing the proper sequencing, you will be amazed by the amount of time that you feel you will have before striking the ball. This is the sensation of the late hit you hear so much about.

Tim,

Now that you've mentioned by favorite book... If you can take a before and after video after practicing the transition move, it will definitely be interesting. Here's my results.

Mann describes the transition move as the arms still swinging back, while the body starts to uncoil, or " it is necessary that the upper and lower body moves in oppositive directions." (While your arms are going back, your body starts to uncoil!)

Mann actually describes that the hips start turning even as the club is continuing backwards. Quite frankly, I don't see what he describes in my Cswing software on any of the pros in the library. However, the feeling is spot on.

I am trying to do this in my own swing, and what actually happens is that the club simple drops, while staying parallel to the top of the transition. Below, I've posted a picture of Paul Stankowski and yours truly (and yes, I know that I have a beginning of a reverse pivot, this stuff isn't easy.)

The "light" overlay is the beginning of the transition move. I've marked out where the club was with a green line. The second line is about 6 frames for both of us (at ~60 frames/second). I can only get this parallel drop like the pros if I try to do what Mann describes. Otherwise, my club has a counterclockwise rotation like hands on a clock, rather than dropping.

I have a bit of vacation time this week, and I was surprised when I could acutally get this to go.

Theo

PS: Yes, I know my stance is narrow and my left foot isn't turned.

[Theologic]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

One more thought:

In another posting, it was talked about how Tommy Armour said that "there was a pause at the top" (which I am assuming many have heard about). I stated that I have never seen this in my Cswing software, but after the last post, it struck me that perhaps Tommy was just looking at the club, which--for some golfers--may simply "pause" because they don't drop it down. So while their lower body is moving, their club is not! If you didn't have video, it would look as if the "golf paused" at the transition. Not really, however, because the lower body was moving.

Posted are two pictures, and Chad Campbell does just this. For 5 or 6 frames, the club stays in one position, while he is wildly starting to twist his hips. I am assuming that Tommy probably just saw this.

Finally, to even it out, I found a picture of Akio Sadakata, who starts moving his arms instantly when he starts to unload his hips! I also show him at the beginning of the transition and 5 clicks in. While Chad holds the club "stationary," Akio just starts moving it immediately.

Akio is interesting is that why Paul, Chad and "your truly" use the initial hips to get "infront" of the arms, Akio doesn't. Yet, he has a beautiful impact position with good lag. Myself, on the otherhand, have complete lack of clearing the hips if I move like Akio. Otherhand, good clearing if I move like Chad.

Theo

[shootin4par]

Re: Hands further away from body at impact

Shootin,

I am not trying to trick you, but once I knew that you were being coached by a TGM type guys, I suddenly figured out where you were coming from, and (dare I say it) your distaste for conventional golf instructors.

Now, I am just trying to get a handle on TGM methodology.

Thanks,
Theo

well a tgm guy got me to do in 3-4 months what I could not do in five years of numerous instructors, but you keep up your reading while I make up more stuff about hogan and watch my handicap drop some more.

and here is a list of tour players that use a TGM guy
Bobby Clampett
Joey Sindelar
Jim Nelford
Pat McGowan
Bob Tway
Willie Wood
Scott Verplank
Andy Dillard
Dick Zokal
Bob Walcott
Mac O'Grady
Robert Wrenn
Keith Clearwater
Jeff Hart
Jim Albus
Chick Evans Steve Elkington
Paul Azinger
Curtis Strange
Tom Kite
Johnny Miller
Bernard Langer
Gary Player
Dan Forsman
Mark Lye
Mark Brooks
Jerry Heard
Jody Mudd
Christian Cevear
Bill Glasson
Jeff Maggert
John Flannery
Rafael Alercon
Jim Carter
Brad Greer

ANd guess what, that is a list from just one instructor, Mr. Ben Doyle