more on lag

[jambalaya]

Re: more on lag

Hi,

As I stated previously the easiest way to understand the use of lag in the golf swing is to imagine the ball is a large nail and your golf club a large hammer, take a swing and try to drive the nail into an imaginary piece of wood as hard as possible. You will naturally create lag and remove it to gain maximum acceleration. Try it!

Regards
Brian

Isn't this a little misleading. When you swing a hammer that is like the basic wrist cock where you keep the wrist flat with respect to the forearm. This does not create lag the way I understand it. Seems you can have a good wrist cock without creating much lag.

[BrianW]

Re: more on lag

Isn't this a little misleading. When you swing a hammer that is like the basic wrist cock where you keep the wrist flat with respect to the forearm. This does not create lag the way I understand it. Seems you can have a good wrist cock without creating much lag.

Hi,

Maintaining wrist cock is lag? When you remove it you create acceleration and head speed.

Brian

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

Hi,

As I stated previously the easiest way to understand the use of lag in the golf swing is to imagine the ball is a large nail and your golf club a large hammer, take a swing and try to drive the nail into an imaginary piece of wood as hard as possible. You will naturally create lag and remove it to gain maximum acceleration. Try it!

Regards
Brian

sorry but I have to disagree with this, the hammer is only moving up and down while in the golf swing the club moves up, down, in out, back and forward and therefore cupped or uncupped wrists with the hammer make no difference
If an instructor shows a student a picture of a good impact position where lag was maintained, what is he showing? There is no wrist cock maintained, what is maintained is the cup of the rear hand. You can have all the wrist cock you want but if the front hand is cupped you have no lag

[jambalaya]

Re: more on lag

sorry but I have to disagree with this, the hammer is only moving up and down while in the golf swing the club moves up, down, in out, back and forward and therefore cupped or uncupped wrists make no difference
If an instructor shows a student a picture of a good impact position where lag was maintained, what is he showing? There is no wrist cock maintained, what is maintained is the cup of the rear hand. You can have all the wrist cock you want but if the front hand is bupped you have no lag

That is what I was thinking.

[aftford]

Re: more on lag

sorry but I have to disagree with this, the hammer is only moving up and down while in the golf swing the club moves up, down, in out, back and forward and therefore cupped or uncupped wrists make no difference
If an instructor shows a student a picture of a good impact position where lag was maintained, what is he showing? There is no wrist cock maintained, what is maintained is the cup of the rear hand. You can have all the wrist cock you want but if the front hand is bupped you have no lag

Sorry shooting , i have to disagree with you and agree with Brian.
Lets go back to the start of the swing:-
the clubhead is taken away in a one piece motion. As your left arm becomes parallel to the ground , your wrists should now be hinged to a point where the shaft of the club is vertical . Now all you have to do is turn the shoulders to complete the backswing. The downswing is initiated by a slight movement of your left hip followed by the uncoiling of your spine and shoulders ( your wrists are still hinged at this point ). As your arms are automatically pulled down by this uncoiling and if the clubface is still behind the hands at this point, then you have maintained the wrist hinge that provides the lag, ready to be released into the back of the ball.

cheers
aft

[jambalaya]

Re: more on lag

Sorry shooting , i have to disagree with you and agree with Brian.
Lets go back to the start of the swing:-
the clubhead is taken away in a one piece motion. As your left arm becomes parallel to the ground , your wrists should now be hinged to a point where the shaft of the club is vertical . Now all you have to do is turn the shoulders to complete the backswing. The downswing is initiated by a slight movement of your left hip followed by the uncoiling of your spine and shoulders ( your wrists are still hinged at this point ). As your arms are automatically pulled down by this uncoiling and if the clubface is still behind the hands at this point, then you have maintained the wrist hinge that provides the lag, ready to be released into the back of the ball.

cheers
aft

I agree that this move creates a certain degree of lag in the swing but I don't think it gives you nearly what you need. It does not create a release forward through the ball towards the target. It helps to keep your clubhead from opening up or closing so you are more likely to come back square to the ball. As shootin said, the release in your hinge is an up and down motion.

[BrianW]

Re: more on lag

I agree that this move creates a certain degree of lag in the swing but I don't think it gives you nearly what you need. It does not create a release forward through the ball towards the target. It helps to keep your clubhead from opening up or closing so you are more likely to come back square to the ball. As shootin said, the release in your hinge is an up and down motion.

Hi,

The attached article explains well.

Regards
Brian

It's like using a hammer

Pick up a hammer and pound a nail as hard as you can. Were you concerned about the "late-hit angle"? Of course not. In fact, the harder you hit the nail with the hammer-trying without tension to get rid of the hammer-head onto the back of the nail- the greater the angle and the later it was retained between the hammer's shaft and your arm. Another example: If you were to hold a flagstick and accelerate it quickly in any one direction, the tendency is for the stick to bend (lag) and your wrists to give (bend back) under the pressure. The same principle causes a late hit in a golf shot.
How to Achieve True Power.
Think of using a sledgehammer
Let's look at the action of hammering again. As you hammer, are you pushing or pulling the hammer's head into the back of the nail? The nail is between you and where you want it to go, so that requires a pushing orientation. With a sledgehammer you would try to push the head directly into whatever you are hitting, allowing the weight of the head to help you generate power. This is similar to hitting a golf ball. Even the phrases, ''hammering a big drive" or "you nailed that one," are analogous. Though you have turned sideways, it is still the familiar hammering action. Any weight transfer, your elbow staying in on the way down, your hips turning, are all effects, not causes. They are effects of how you hold the sledgehammer (or the club), and how you make it hit the object (or the ball) with your hands.

An exercise
to feel power

To feel the swing as a pushing action, set up at address with the clubhead against a solid object, like a wall. Push the clubhead against the wall and feel how this pushing is out from and against each of these body parts: head, left shoulder, right shoulder, left hip, right hip, left knee, right knee, left foot, right foot. Now take some practice swings pushing the clubhead through the ball and away from your entire body. Acquire this feeling for all your future shots.

[jambalaya]

Re: more on lag

Hi,

The attached article explains well.

Regards
Brian

It's like using a hammer

Pick up a hammer and pound a nail as hard as you can. Were you concerned about the "late-hit angle"? Of course not. In fact, the harder you hit the nail with the hammer-trying without tension to get rid of the hammer-head onto the back of the nail- the greater the angle and the later it was retained between the hammer's shaft and your arm. Another example: If you were to hold a flagstick and accelerate it quickly in any one direction, the tendency is for the stick to bend (lag) and your wrists to give (bend back) under the pressure. The same principle causes a late hit in a golf shot.
How to Achieve True Power.
Think of using a sledgehammer
Let's look at the action of hammering again. As you hammer, are you pushing or pulling the hammer's head into the back of the nail? The nail is between you and where you want it to go, so that requires a pushing orientation. With a sledgehammer you would try to push the head directly into whatever you are hitting, allowing the weight of the head to help you generate power. This is similar to hitting a golf ball. Even the phrases, ''hammering a big drive" or "you nailed that one," are analogous. Though you have turned sideways, it is still the familiar hammering action. Any weight transfer, your elbow staying in on the way down, your hips turning, are all effects, not causes. They are effects of how you hold the sledgehammer (or the club), and how you make it hit the object (or the ball) with your hands.

An exercise
to feel power

To feel the swing as a pushing action, set up at address with the clubhead against a solid object, like a wall. Push the clubhead against the wall and feel how this pushing is out from and against each of these body parts: head, left shoulder, right shoulder, left hip, right hip, left knee, right knee, left foot, right foot. Now take some practice swings pushing the clubhead through the ball and away from your entire body. Acquire this feeling for all your future shots.

His last paragraph concerning the wall drill illustrates what I am talking about. When you push the clubhead against the wall you are not doing so with the up and down motion of the wrist cock. The pressure on your wrist in pushing up against the wall is 90 degress from that. It is pushing on the back of your left hand. That is why this description is misleading. I can understand the hammering the nail into the back of the ball but the direction of the clubhead face in relation to the wrists is 90 degree out of phase with an actual hammer swing. The principle is the same but comparing to an actual hammer swing I think confuses some people.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

IMO you guys are talking about 2 different things, there is a difference between delaying impact (lag) and incocking of the wrist (releasing the club)....... uncocking creates a downward compressing swing which gives great club head acceleration and backspin, and that is from wrist cock. DELAYING IMPACT or lag creates power and accuracy by keeping the club head square through the impact zone longer and is done by cupping the right wrist.

I complety agree with brian and I love that hammer demonstration. I did find it hard to understand at firtst, but one day it clicked and i knew axactly what they ment by hammering down and I gained about 50 yds and got good backspin and trajectory from hammering down and compresing the ball.

i used to cup my left wrist at the top and i knew i wasn't supposed to but i couldn't keep my wrist flat no matter how hard i tried because my form was all wrong. now at the top a flat wrist is simple, i just push the shaft against my thumbs and on the downswing i "hammer down" my thumbs as hard and fast as a can when the shaft is parrellel to the ground.

it seems like it wouldn't work since as you said your hand don't go up and down, they go up and down and around and back and fourth...... but that all happens naturally with the body turn, if you just focus on the arms going strait back agaist the thumbs and strait down with the thumbs and have a proper weight shift then when your hands "hammer down" they will rotatate around and hit the ball perfectly on the downswing and compress the ball.

however you do want to kepp the right wrist cupped throung impact because that just allows you to delay the impact or lag..... it allows you shoulders to turn from 90 deg (top of backswing) back to 0 and then through to about 45 deg when you hit the ball accelerating the whole time insted of uncupping your wrist and haveing your shoulders rotate from 90 deg to 0 and then swatting at the full not utalizing a full powerfull shouler turn of about a 135 deg or downswing rotation instead of just 90. as greg demonstrates in his right hand drill

[jambalaya]

Re: more on lag

IMO you guys are talking about 2 different things, there is a difference between delaying impact and acheiving lag....... LAG creates a downward compressing swing which gives great club head acceleration and backspin, and that is from wrist cock and that alone. DELAYING IMPACT creates power and accuracy by keeping the club head square through the impact zone longer and is done by cupping the right wrist.

I complety agree with brian and I love that hammer demonstration. I did find it hard to understand at firtst, but one day it clicked and i knew axactly what they ment by hammering down and I gained about 50 yds and got good backspin and trajectory from hammering down and compresing the ball.

i used to cup my left wrist at the top and i knew i wasn't supposed to but i couldn't keep my wrist flat no matter how hard i tried because my form was all wrong. now at the top a flat wrist is simple, i just push the shaft against my thumbs and on the downswing i "hammer down" my thumbs as hard and fast as a can when the shaft is parrellel to the ground.

it seems like it wouldn't work since as you said your hand don't go up and down, they go up and down and around and back and fourth...... but that all happens naturally with the body turn, if you just focus on the arms going strait back agaist the thumbs and strait down with the thumbs and have a proper weight shift then when your hands "hammer down" they will rotatate around and hit the ball perfectly on the downswing and compress the ball.

however you do want to kepp the right wrist cupped throung impact because that just allows you to delay the impact..... it allows you shoulders to turn from 90 deg (top of backswing) back to 0 and then through to about 45 deg when you hit the ball accelerating the whole time insted of uncupping your wrist and haveing your shoulders rotate from 90 deg to 0 and then swatting at the full not utalizing a full powerfull shouler turn of about a 135 deg or downswing rotation instead of just 90. as greg demonstrates in his right hand drill

Delaying impact is not lag?

We don't get French benefits?

I understand the hammering down part. I understand the wrist cock while keeping the wrists flat. I just didn't consider that lag. I thought delaying impact was lag.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

Delaying impact is not lag?

We don't get French benefits?

I understand the hammering down part. I understand the wrist cock while keeping the wrists flat. I just didn't consider that lag. I thought delaying impact was lag.

my bad jamalaya, you are right, I have edited my origonal post to what is is now. could your change your quote of me please so as not to confuse people?

Hi,

Maintaining wrist cock is lag? When you remove it you create acceleration and head speed.

Brian

well i disagree with brian and aftford then, uncocking would be releaseing the club not lagging. you said it youself... "you create acceleration and head speed" that is release.

according to websters dictionary lag-to stay or fall behind... lag is keeping the club head behind the hands and that is only achieved through cupping of the right wrist. if your right hand is collapsed/uncupped, then cock or uncock the club head will still be ahead of hands therfore having no lag. so you can call uncocking lag if you want, as many do, it is up to you, but it confused me at first because according to the definition uncocking is really not lag

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

Sorry shooting , i have to disagree with you and agree with Brian.
Lets go back to the start of the swing:-
the clubhead is taken away in a one piece motion. As your left arm becomes parallel to the ground , your wrists should now be hinged to a point where the shaft of the club is vertical . Now all you have to do is turn the shoulders to complete the backswing. The downswing is initiated by a slight movement of your left hip followed by the uncoiling of your spine and shoulders ( your wrists are still hinged at this point ). As your arms are automatically pulled down by this uncoiling and if the clubface is still behind the hands at this point, then you have maintained the wrist hinge that provides the lag, ready to be released into the back of the ball.

cheers
aft

we disagree and no skin off my back, Its all good
you can hinge with a cupped front wrist. When the front wrist is cupped the club head is in front of the hands in relation to plane. Technically, at the top of the swing hogan had no lag because he was cupped, this keeps the club head outside the hands, but when he came into the ball he changed that to a bowed wrist and created his lag. The typical eplanation of wrist cock equals lag, I am sorry but it is not right. Think of this, a basketball player is shooting a ball, the wrist stays back, the ball is lagging behind his arm. Now what if he was at the top of his stroke but had the wrist in the opposite way, how would his shot look. The basketball player could bring his arm back as far as he wants but if he has that wrist the wrong way he has no lag and more then likely has no shot

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

according to websters dictionary lag-to stay or fall behind... lag is keeping the club head behind the hands and that is only achieved through cupping of the right wrist. if your right hand is collapsed/uncupped, then cock or uncock the club head will still be ahead of hands therfore having no lag. so you can call uncocking lag if you want, as many do, it is up to you, but it confused me at first because according to the definition uncocking is really not lag

great post

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

Hi,

To feel the swing as a pushing action, set up at address with the clubhead against a solid object, like a wall. Push the clubhead against the wall and feel how this pushing is out from and against each of these body parts: head, left shoulder, right shoulder, left hip, right hip, left knee, right knee, left foot, right foot. Now take some practice swings pushing the clubhead through the ball and away from your entire body. Acquire this feeling for all your future shots.

this is a hitting procedure and not a swinging procedure. for some people this advice is correct, for others it could KILL their swing

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

The typical eplanation of wrist cock equals lag, I am sorry but it is not right. Think of this, a basketball player is shooting a ball, the wrist stays back, the ball is lagging behind his arm. Now what if he was at the top of his stroke but had the wrist in the opposite way, how would his shot look. The basketball player could bring his arm back as far as he wants but if he has that wrist the wrong way he has no lag and more then likely has no shot

exactly what i was saying