more on lag

[Simon Woo]

Re: more on lag

My take on this : Lag is delaying impact. That is done through right wrist cup, and not with wrist (un)cock. Do we concur?

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

My take on this : Lag is delaying impact. That is done through right wrist cup, and not with wrist (un)cock. Do we concur?

yes, I concur

[BrianW]

Re: more on lag

My take on this : Lag is delaying impact. That is done through right wrist cup, and not with wrist (un)cock. Do we concur?

It's not as simple as a yes or no to this question. Here is what I think:

In the down swing a late release of the angle formed in the wrists is necessary to create sufficient head speed for a powerful shot. Another factor involved is the bowing created in the shaft that keeps the club head slightly behind the wrists, this bowing is released through impact at the same time as the club is reaching maximum velocity. Both of these things can be described as "Lag" (holding back).

There are two ways that the angle in the wrists can be released:

1) By rotating the right forearm over the left thus squaring the clubface through impact. Used by the majority of players but difficult to master as it needs very good timing.

2) By using what I would call the "Puck" method, this is similar to that used by an ice hockey player when he strikes the puck, it allows the right wrist to bend under the left through impact, there must still be some rotation of the forearms but not as severe. This method allows the the leading edge of the clubface to stay on the target line slightly longer thus making it easier to hit straight powerful shots.

Look at this attached video of Tiger, where is the cupping in his right wrist at impact? it is clear to see the delayed release he has though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPJtK...=tiger%20woods

To conclude: In my opinion Lag is the holding back of the clubhead behind the hands through the angle of the wrists and the bowing of the shaft. How you accelerate the club head through impact (By whatever method) is the release).

Regards
Brian

[Simon Woo]

Re: more on lag

Does this make sense? : If you have lag but not release, then your iron will be quite straight and consistent, but high and lacking in distance.

Is this 'release' a natural part of a swinger, or is it more pronounced in a hitter?

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: more on lag

Hello All:

There seems to be very little lag in this dicsussion.......

With respect to the hammer analogy, I don't like it because it does not describe or take into account, the other bodily efforts required during the golf swing. I have driven tens of thousands of nails in my life and not once did it require good foot, leg or hip action. Just good hand and eye coordination. Certainly helpfull in golf but far from the whole picture.

As I stated previously in this thread, lag is a dynamic principle involving the correct function and actions of the entire body during the golf swing. It is true that the correct grip and hand action is important. Greg's right hand drill and philosophy can be clearly verified looking at any top player at impact. Forget the right hand for a moment. The left hand is always firm and flat (for right handed players) at impact so the right hand must be bent back slightly or cupped. Really no debate there.

If you try to achieve the cupped right hand and firm left wrist at impact simply by trying to hold the wrist angle created during the backswing, you will be missing out on other very reliable and powerfull facets of the swing. True dynamic lag, the type of explosion between clubhead and ball that good players display is acheived through the correct motion and timing of the feet, legs, hips, torso, shoulders, arms, wrists hands and club.

If I had to pick one thing to work on and understand fully, it would be the transition as this action is usually what separates the good from not so good players. You cannot create powerfull lag by starting the downswing with the upper body and this is usually what you see with the higher handicap player. As Gregs RHD video clip illustrates, it is not just the correct use of the hands. It is the use of the hips, torso and shoulders that gives the true power to the swing. Use these together correctly and you won't even have to think about lag as it will happen automatically.

[BrianW]

Re: more on lag

Hello All:

There seems to be very little lag in this dicsussion.......

With respect to the hammer analogy, I don't like it because it does not describe or take into account, the other bodily efforts required during the golf swing. I have driven tens of thousands of nails in my life and not once did it require good foot, leg or hip action. Just good hand and eye coordination. Certainly helpfull in golf but far from the whole picture.

As I stated previously in this thread, lag is a dynamic principle involving the correct function and actions of the entire body during the golf swing. It is true that the correct grip and hand action is important. Greg's right hand drill and philosophy can be clearly verified looking at any top player at impact. Forget the right hand for a moment. The left hand is always firm and flat (for right handed players) at impact so the right hand must be bent back slightly or cupped. Really no debate there.

If you try to achieve the cupped right hand and firm left wrist at impact simply by trying to hold the wrist angle created during the backswing, you will be missing out on other very reliable and powerfull facets of the swing. True dynamic lag, the type of explosion between clubhead and ball that good players display is acheived through the correct motion and timing of the feet, legs, hips, torso, shoulders, arms, wrists hands and club.

If I had to pick one thing to work on and understand fully, it would be the transition as this action is usually what separates the good from not so good players. You cannot create powerfull lag by starting the downswing with the upper body and this is usually what you see with the higher handicap player. As Gregs RHD video clip illustrates, it is not just the correct use of the hands. It is the use of the hips, torso and shoulders that gives the true power to the swing. Use these together correctly and you won't even have to think about lag as it will happen automatically.

I think everyone here agrees with the swing dynamics you describe relating to the use of the hands, torso, shoulders etc. The analogy of the hammer is not trying to assert that many other factors do not apply in the golf swing it is just a way to simplify the late release of the club by the use of the hands and forearms and the driving forces at impact. Remember many of the people seeking advice on improving their swing will not understand some of these complex arguments or descriptions.

Respectfully
Brian

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

1) By rotating the right forearm over the left thus squaring the clubface through impact. Used by the majority of players but difficult to master as it needs very good timing.

Regards
Brian

this post seems to haev turened into a debate (which is fine, i just don't think it should be in the "golf swing instuction" it should be in "deneral golf discussion" or somewhere else.......

but to comment on brians quote i will share a swing thought that has helped me greatly. when i read rotating the forearms over or anytime i try to consiosly "hammer down" or do anything consiouly with my hands arms it creates tension and prevents me from a full release and i lose a lot of club head speed. instead of hammering down, i position myself on the downswing so that when i release the club it naturally "hammers down" and by hammering down i don't even try to rotate my forearms but i still get tremendous rataion because there is no tension and i think that is the key..... positioning your body to achieve lag by downswinging in the correct sequence then releasing the club properly to natually get that forearm crossover.

[Simon Woo]

Re: more on lag

Timothy, your posts always provide very good insights..

Skywalker, I think I might have posted something similar on this before, where I was emphasizing the DOWNswing and not the FORWARDswing. I felt that a more correct move was to use the body to generate the forward momentum, and the hands/arms to generate the downward movement of the downswing. Come to think of it, I think that really helps to get the hands to release/crossover at impact. Any further insights on this thought?

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

Skywalker, I think I might have posted something similar on this before, where I was emphasizing the DOWNswing and not the FORWARDswing. I felt that a more correct move was to use the body to generate the forward momentum, and the hands/arms to generate the downward movement of the downswing. Come to think of it, I think that really helps to get the hands to release/crossover at impact. Any further insights on this thought?

i completly agree, the uncocking of the wrist and releasing is a strait down motion but if you add the forwardswing with the body that downward motion now adds to the club head speed, another bonus to that is a decending blow which gives backspin and a crisp contact. i do not think that has anything to do with lag, though is is key to a powerfull swing, i believe that is what should be called release/crossover.



and when i said in the past that the right wrist cup is needed for lag i didn't mean a 90 deg cup, i agree with timothy who says in order to have a flat left wrist at impact a somwhat cupped right wrist is nessasary

[Simon Woo]

Re: more on lag

Do you think it's misleading that people always say that you should have a smooth swing and the ball should just get in the way? Taking that to the extreme, beginners might overlook this release and what appears to be still a certain degree of hitting the ball?

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

Do you think it's misleading that people always say that you should have a smooth swing and the ball should just get in the way? Taking that to the extreme, beginners might overlook this release and what appears to be still a certain degree of hitting the ball?

thats a good question..... i would say yes and no. i think the reason that advice is given is because some people have good pactice swings but when they get in front of the ball there swing changes and they get nervous. those people should just let the ball "get in the way" of their swing. but yes there is a dgree of hitting the ball, but I don't believe it to be done with the hands/arms, I believe it to be done with the the position of the body releasing the club into the ball by throwing the clubhead into the ball more than hitting the ball. that my opinion

[Simon Woo]

Re: more on lag

I can accept that answer Thanks!

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

thats a good question..... i would say yes and no. i think the reason that advice is given is because some people have good pactice swings but when they get in front of the ball there swing changes and they get nervous. those people should just let the ball "get in the way" of their swing. but yes there is a dgree of hitting the ball, but I don't believe it to be done with the hands/arms, I believe it to be done with the the position of the body releasing the club into the ball by throwing the clubhead into the ball more than hitting the ball. that my opinion

some people have a good practice swing but set up in a way that will bimechanically not allow that practice swing to be duplicated and hit a good shot

[lgskywalker37]

Re: more on lag

some people have a good practice swing but set up in a way that will bimechanically not allow that practice swing to be duplicated and hit a good shot

set up biomechanically wrong? can you elaborate on that....

[shootin4par]

Re: more on lag

it is my bedtime but a quick example.
say you set up with a lot of angle in your wrists at address, meaning a big angle between lead arm and club shaft. Now in your practice swing you did not know it but the club ended up one inch outside of were you addressed your practice swing. but when you go to hit the ball the body can not make the same movements or you would shank the ball, so THE BODY must do something different to compensate, and a couple come to mind. One would be to hit too much inside out, another woudl be too much over the top, or another would be to lift up coming into impact. if you want your real swing and practice swing to be the same your set up has to be one that will allow that to happen