anyone up for a discussion?

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pneran
i have the same takeaway as you, have a forward press and i think of it that my shoulders turn and that swings back the triangle of my arms, i feel my shoulder touch my chin, its like a check point for me, i dont think about anything from the time i have my press to the end of the follow throught, i do count ( one-- and -- two)
bill

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Interesting how people feel and do things differently. On my backswing I move the whole upper body unit away together (hands, arms and shoulders) driven by the core such that the hands and arms move last. I also get my right hip out of the way quickly, turning it behind me to make sure it turns and doesnt slide as my core turns the arm/chest unit (triangle) up the wall and I get right behind the ball. All this time the left arm stays connectred to the chest. In this way I feel as if my upper and lower bodies seperate very early in the backswing

This gives me the room to drive my hands down on an inside "lane" where my right hip would have been if I hadnt have turned it out the way. I see a lot of people at my range sliding their right hips and then having no room to bring the club down because it is in the way. They then have to come OTT to square the face. Same reason why we stand open on small pitches and chips.. we preset the hips out the way of the lane our arms need to take

all good stuff this

I learned so much about this from Paul Bradley in his book "The 7 Laws of the golf swing" it clarified so much in graphic detail.

He suggests an image on the takeaway of being impaled through the chest with a wooden stake that passes out the back and is anchored into the ground behind you (I know it sounds gruesome) as you take the club away the stake holds your torso while your arms and shoulders rotate, at the horizontal position the stake snaps and allows the torso and hips to turn.

[james.welsh]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Single-piece take away (chest, arms, hands, club head move away from the ball at the same rate) until the club is parallel to the ground and target line, then as you cock your wrist your arms go straight up just like you're heaving a sack of potatoes over your shoulder. All of this is a nice smooth continuous motion.

On the downswing I visualize inscribing a "loop" to the inside of the target line in the air with my hands so I'm moving from inside to out through impact.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Single-piece take away (chest, arms, hands, club head move away from the ball at the same rate) until the club is parallel to the ground and target line, then as you cock your wrist your arms go straight up just like you're heaving a sack of potatoes over your shoulder. All of this is a nice smooth continuous motion.

On the downswing I visualize inscribing a "loop" to the inside of the target line in the air with my hands so I'm moving from inside to out through impact.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Stick to it! You are saying the same thing just in different words.

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

I am wondering a few things. I think we may have stumbled on the same conclusions independently

1. With a centered turn and exaggerated left forearm rotation the hands get deeper in the BS. . From the top you rely on shoulder and forearm rotation for speed and squaring the clubface. Hogan I guess had this type of swing and this is what Hardy and Quinton etc preach in the One Plane Swing

2. With a weight shift and more upright swing the hands gets high at the top with minimal forearm rotation. This is more of a leverage swing where speed comes from a wide arc (club has further to travel) and a more aggressive weight shift left. The club still rotates on the way down but far less than in no 1. I guess Ernie and DL3 are this type of swinger

Without getting right into it (because honestly i dont care!) you could probably disect this with a world of mumbo jumbo about plane shifts, turned shoulder planes, elbow planes etc etc yada yada yada

But I wonder whether you (like me to an extent) make an aggressive weight shift from the top naturally. In a centered swing this would probably look like a lunge/heave forward but when you get the weight back and high hands this move is actually very powerful and allows for really good compression and greater swing speed. One thing I do notice is at impact in the first type you have the bent right arm but in no 2 the right arm straightens right at impact rather than beyond. You can really see this in Michelle Wie's and Ernies swing http://content-golf.live.advance.net...uencepanel.jpg (and look at the behind the ball position Michelle gets at the top)

pnearm, first, I dont like using ernie els, michellw wie, or charles howell 3 as examples BECAUSE they all use ledbetter. His students have the straightest right arms at impact because one of the moves he likes to incorperate into their swing are straightening that arm from the top. Look at most other pro golfers and they are not this straight. Hogan and one plane are VERY bad. Hogan had a pronounced shift back and forward. I have a tape with him and he moves off the ball a lot and is not centered. For someone to say he is one plane ALA Hardy. I dont like it or buy it. Hogan was not bent over, did not have the weight on the balls of the feet, I could go on and one about the differences between his swing and that one plane thing.
and these are just my observations

shifting the body when shifting the weight is natural I like this mvoe a lot better then my centered turn, that to me is very unatural. great observatons and discussion.

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Sounds good Brian! I guess we have gone a little off topic but I think its a real interesting debate and it certainly seems to be something that has helped me enormously just lately (and S4p too by the looks of things)

brain and pnearm, feel free to continue the discussion here because it relates

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

To illustrate this look at this setup position of Brady Riggs (taken from the Impractis site)



And look at the top of swing



See how the right hip has actually come away from the line as he has turned it, and how his left shoulder and head have come backwards. Lower body has turned, upper body has shifted right and turned. That plus the forearm rotations are the absolute keys for me. If I get them right I pound the ball and when im off I can usually trace it back to one of those two things

Because the right hip is out the way he can drop his arms down inside , into that
"lane" and the clubface will have a free run at the ball and square up. If the hip was over that line then the arms have to go around it and they wont have the time and space to square, the clubface will be open and you would block. So what people do is bring the club OTT to get it in front of those hips. It took me a long time to figure this out for myself but it feels like your arms are going away from you and your hips behind you. NOT both in the same direction (which is why I now personally think trying so hard to keep the hips still ruined my game for a long time)

GREAT PICS!!!!!!
that is EXACTLY my point in this thread, can you post more of these of other golfers?????

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Single-piece take away (chest, arms, hands, club head move away from the ball at the same rate) until the club is parallel to the ground and target line, then as you cock your wrist your arms go straight up just like you're heaving a sack of potatoes over your shoulder. All of this is a nice smooth continuous motion.

On the downswing I visualize inscribing a "loop" to the inside of the target line in the air with my hands so I'm moving from inside to out through impact.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

sounds like a good story

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi lowpost
my head moves like in the pics above but my hips move two inches more right on back swing too. both move back to start poing and hips turn as well.
bill

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

pnearm, first, I dont like using ernie els, michellw wie, or charles howell 3 as examples BECAUSE they all use ledbetter. His students have the straightest right arms at impact because one of the moves he likes to incorperate into their swing are straightening that arm from the top. Look at most other pro golfers and they are not this straight. Hogan and one plane are VERY bad. Hogan had a pronounced shift back and forward. I have a tape with him and he moves off the ball a lot and is not centered. For someone to say he is one plane ALA Hardy. I dont like it or buy it. Hogan was not bent over, did not have the weight on the balls of the feet, I could go on and one about the differences between his swing and that one plane thing.
and these are just my observations

shifting the body when shifting the weight is natural I like this mvoe a lot better then my centered turn, that to me is very unatural. great observatons and discussion.

Agree about Hogan. Not about the right arm. Again trying to somehow 'not run out of right arm' into impact didnt do my game any favours. I find I have better speed and compression if I feel my right arm straightening earlier.
Read this .. its enlightening

http://www.pga.com/improve/features/...aruk030706.cfm

Tiger basically telling Peter Kostis that he delibetarely tries to straigthen the right arm because his lower body moves so fast and if he didnt he'd block it badly right (which we all know is his bad shot). Casting isnt a bad thing if done with the right lower body movements. Better to be square at impact with a small cast then stuck way behind with lots of right arm to block it two fairways right!

Again using Brady Riggs and the classic swing, you can see his right arm is straight through impact



I think Leadbetter gets a bad rap on Brian Manzellas site for no real good reason. He teaches a classic two plane swing and it's worked fine for a lot of very good golfers. And as that PGA article explains straightening the right arm isnt all bad for a lot of golfers with fast hips/quick lower bodies (like myself)

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pnearn
i have leadbetters interactive and i'm sure its a one plane swing, the guy that he shows you how to do it right had his left arm in line of his shoulder and swings back and throught on same plane, is that not a one plane swing, and in the tips leadbetter tells you to have your left arm as close to the line of the plan of your shoulders as you can.
i never really like leadbetter that much till i got this set of dvds and only got it for the v1 software but i have used it and i like it, he has a bit in it about moving your head too and says a small amout of head movment is fine as long as the head moves back and forward and not up and down.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

After some thought process and practice I have come to my opinion on the movement of the head in the swing:

It is related to the position of the sternum. The sternum is positioned on a line passing through the middle of the body and moves in relation to the spine, the head is also positioned in line with the middle of the body so both have a positional relationship.

During the golf swing the neck rotates to keep the eyes pointing at the ball but the head has to move backwards and forwards with the sternum.

You cannot rotate the hips back in the downswing by anything more than a tiny amount without allowing the sternum to rotate, this in turn moves the head with it (just try getting into the backswing then trying to rotate your hips without moving your sternum, spine or head, it's impossible as the spine is not designed to twist).

So, in conclusion: Shootin is correct the head moves first in the downswing but it is joined by the sternum and hips.

A small addition. have a look at this link to Sergio and frame through his swing, you will see the relationship to his head and sternum. You will also see that he does not cup his right hand through impact or unduly rotate his shoulders.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...638586,00.html

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Agree about Hogan. Not about the right arm. Again trying to somehow 'not run out of right arm' into impact didnt do my game any favours. I find I have better speed and compression if I feel my right arm straightening earlier.
Read this .. its enlightening

http://www.pga.com/improve/features/...aruk030706.cfm

Tiger basically telling Peter Kostis that he delibetarely tries to straigthen the right arm because his lower body moves so fast and if he didnt he'd block it badly right (which we all know is his bad shot). Casting isnt a bad thing if done with the right lower body movements. Better to be square at impact with a small cast then stuck way behind with lots of right arm to block it two fairways right!

Again using Brady Riggs and the classic swing, you can see his right arm is straight through impact



I think Leadbetter gets a bad rap on Brian Manzellas site for no real good reason. He teaches a classic two plane swing and it's worked fine for a lot of very good golfers. And as that PGA article explains straightening the right arm isnt all bad for a lot of golfers with fast hips/quick lower bodies (like myself)

the issue I have with the right arm thing is if you consciously straighten it then you may end up getting your timing off and have it straighten ahead of the body turn from time to time. The things I dislike about ledbetter are basically his right arm straightening thing and that has nothing to do with reading manzellas site. Hogan said in his downswing he only thought of firing the lower body as fast as he could. when watching his swing he looks like he is swinging hard, but yet well balanced or maintained. some people are not as much a fan of hogan as I am but the man hit the golf ball better then anyone else of all time. Better then moe norman too for the simple fact that he was longer, much longer. Tiger said hogan owned his swing and that is what he wants to do as well. well if hogan only thought about firing as hard as he could and tiger needs to think of more then that, then Tiger might be best served on what is different about his swing that makes him NEED to think about more. Is tiger thinking about the right arm a solution to his real problem, or is it a band aid that covers something up? Does tiger have a great swing IMO, yes he certainly does but there are some issues that lead to his inconsistent ball striking.

Tiger is arguably the greatest golfer of all time, and once he is done there may be no arguement. but when hogan hit his golfing nirvana, tiger may never reach that level of ball striking. Tiger is probably the better all around golfer then hogan, but ball striker, tiger claims himself to be inferior in that department. Ledbetter might be a great instructor, but if you put me in a room with tiger woods, jack, hogan, nelson, and garcia as the players, and the top five instructors of all time. I would try to learn the swing from the players because they COULD swing like that and they dug it out of the dirt. They know what the swing felt like. THey know how to produce it. A lot of people want to discredit hogans swing in one way or another but I can tell you right now that my swing is becoming much more like hogans and the more it becomes like his the easier it has been to reproduce. Some people dont like his grip, set up, or what not. Some people say he made compensations in his swing to cover up swing issues. I would tend to think if he was the most repeatable then that probably means he had the least amount of compensations.

I kind of ran off at the typewriter, but my point is hogan, garcia, daly, etc... were/are not straight with the right arm at impact along with many other great players, so what is that a compesation for?

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

After some thought process and practice I have come to my opinion on the movement of the head in the swing:

It is related to the position of the sternum. The sternum is positioned on a line passing through the middle of the body and moves in relation to the spine, the head is also positioned in line with the middle of the body so both have a positional relationship.

During the golf swing the neck rotates to keep the eyes pointing at the ball but the head has to move backwards and forwards with the sternum.

You cannot rotate the hips back in the downswing by anything more than a tiny amount without allowing the sternum to rotate, this in turn moves the head with it (just try getting into the backswing then trying to rotate your hips without moving your sternum, spine or head, it's impossible as the spine is not designed to twist).

So, in conclusion: Shootin is correct the head moves first in the downswing but it is joined by the sternum and hips.

A small addition. have a look at this link to Sergio and frame through his swing, you will see the relationship to his head and sternum. You will also see that he does not cup his right hand through impact or unduly rotate his shoulders.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...638586,00.html

brain,
thanks for being in on the conversation, I hope it helped you out in some way or another as it helped me out in seeing others views and I feel I understand it better then when I first started it.

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

the issue I have with the right arm thing is if you consciously straighten it then you may end up getting your timing off and have it straighten ahead of the body turn from time to time. The things I dislike about ledbetter are basically his right arm straightening thing and that has nothing to do with reading manzellas site. Hogan said in his downswing he only thought of firing the lower body as fast as he could. when watching his swing he looks like he is swinging hard, but yet well balanced or maintained. some people are not as much a fan of hogan as I am but the man hit the golf ball better then anyone else of all time. Better then moe norman too for the simple fact that he was longer, much longer. Tiger said hogan owned his swing and that is what he wants to do as well. well if hogan only thought about firing as hard as he could and tiger needs to think of more then that, then Tiger might be best served on what is different about his swing that makes him NEED to think about more. Is tiger thinking about the right arm a solution to his real problem, or is it a band aid that covers something up? Does tiger have a great swing IMO, yes he certainly does but there are some issues that lead to his inconsistent ball striking.

Tiger is arguably the greatest golfer of all time, and once he is done there may be no arguement. but when hogan hit his golfing nirvana, tiger may never reach that level of ball striking. Tiger is probably the better all around golfer then hogan, but ball striker, tiger claims himself to be inferior in that department. Ledbetter might be a great instructor, but if you put me in a room with tiger woods, jack, hogan, nelson, and garcia as the players, and the top five instructors of all time. I would try to learn the swing from the players because they COULD swing like that and they dug it out of the dirt. They know what the swing felt like. THey know how to produce it. A lot of people want to discredit hogans swing in one way or another but I can tell you right now that my swing is becoming much more like hogans and the more it becomes like his the easier it has been to reproduce. Some people dont like his grip, set up, or what not. Some people say he made compensations in his swing to cover up swing issues. I would tend to think if he was the most repeatable then that probably means he had the least amount of compensations.

I kind of ran off at the typewriter, but my point is hogan, garcia, daly, etc... were/are not straight with the right arm at impact along with many other great players, so what is that a compesation for?

Paul. Have a look at the link to Sergio's swing on my posting. His right arm and wrist looks pretty straight at impact.