anyone up for a discussion?

[shootin4par]

In reading a lot from www.brianmanzella.com it has helped me gain what I consider to be the biggest revelation I have made for myself in the golf swing. In shoft here is a summary of what I think I learned.


in having a better understanding of pivot from this site I have been messing around and trying to figure this stuff out. one thing I noticed is this. If you stand in front of a mirror and just think get my weight on my right foot, get my weight on my left foot you will notice something, your HEAD moves right and left. now do the same thing but take a lot of second axis tilt and shift side to side again, your head moves again. in doing this with second axis tile Your head does not have to be on the left side for your weight to be there but your head HAS TO move to the left for your weight to transfet there.

In watching all these good swings if you watch the head movement what happens? the head moves back on the back swing and at the START of the downswing it moves back towards the left. . If this did not happen then weight shift would not occur. So when people say bump the hips, left foot, right knee, etc... starts the downswing, is that really what starts it? shift your head back on the back swing and DONT let it move forward and you will notice that you cant PLANT the left heel, you CANT get to a firm left side, you WILL reverse pivot, etc........

So I ask the question what technically STARTS the downswing, my answer is a head shift left.

in conclusion the head must be able to shift off the ball on the back swing because IT WILL shift forward on the downswing. The shift forward is a good thing, but it is viewed as a bad thing by those who DONT move the head back on the back swing. in reading on here I know GONAVY has an understanding of this, and I imagine Greg and others do as well.

[rharris06]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Tigers head doesent move forward on the downswing untill the ball is gone !

[Started2k3]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Tigers head doesent move forward on the downswing untill the ball is gone !

You are pretty much correct.

http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingpo...gportrait_tout

Just for fun. Choose on the head shot footage.
Put your cursor on the nib on his hat at the start of the swing to see how his head moves during the swing. For fun compare that with his chin (same process).

What do you notice?

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Tigers head doesent move forward on the downswing untill the ball is gone !

it does not move forward of the ADDRESS POSITION, but it does move forward of the top of the back swing position.

[Started2k3]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

it does not move forward of the ADDRESS POSITION, but it does move forward of the top of the back swing position.

It does move a little bit forward, but it moves alot more down. And even before impact it moves alot back.

[kbp]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

While the head will certainly move forward on the downswing, it's the result of other actions. I would not consider head movement to "start" the downswing. I think it is more accurate to say the feet, ankles, knees, etc. start the downswing and other body parts, including the head, are set into motion in direct response. IMO, it’s more useful to think in terms of ground up rather than top down when starting the downswing.

Now if the point is to LET the head go back a bit on the back swing and LET the head move forward a bit on the downswing, then I totally agree.

[rharris06]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

If you started your downswing with your head moving forward you would have to time it to perfection!!!!

Silly idea!

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi shooting
yes a agree that almost all move there heads back and then back to the start point but not forward past the start point, but i disagree it started the down swing, in the last few months i have been looking at the tour pros swing and on the full power swing, all and i mean all i have looked at and this 67 so far move the hips first, the hips shift or turn starts as there hands are still going back, tiger is easy seen as the clubhead is still going back as first the hips shift and turn and his hands drop into the slot, his head moved with his hips as far as i can see not before.
think head and hips both move and then the arms follow, monty and els and vj all look the same as far as head and hips move, the only one i found thats did not do it was sam torance, his head did not move at all, langer had a big head movment and his dips a lot too.
i do see where your comming from but have another look frame by frame and watch belt buckle and nose where the eyes meet.
let me know what you think please.
bill

[jesperparnevik]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

If you started your downswing you would have to time it to perfection!!!!

Silly idea!

Rharris: I've noticed you are very dismissive of other peoples opinions and ideas on this site. It is as shootin says "a discussion" (consideration of a question in open debate or conversation). You are young and don't know shit about shit! so, take it easy and learn the 'art' of discussion.
back to the topic...Shootin, I've been reading the new golf swing site and the section on the hips for power is well worth a read. Makes sense to me, I tried it last weekend off the tee and hit some BOMBS!
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Hello Folks:

I posted some questions about head movement during the swing a few weeks back. I became intrigued by this after studying Jack's swing and reading some material from Golf My Way. Since then I have read several articals by different pros advocating significant movement of the head during the swing. Jack actually starts his swing by rotating his chin slightly away from the target as a trigger. After viewing many other pros swings in slow motion, it is clear that head movement is present. Here are a few thoughts:

1) The head actually makes a mini swing of it's own during the golf swing.
2) Trying to keep the head perfectly still is very restrictive.
3) The head will move more on longer swings and less with shorter swings.
4) If you view swing sequences you will see that with the drivers, even the pros appear to be looking at their rear foot at the top as a result of rotating the head away from the target.
5) Head movement should only be side to side not up and down.
6) You can keep the head fairly stationary while moving the chin which will facilitate a full shoulder turn. Very helpful with the driver.
7) Eye dominance plays into this head motion. Some players who are right eye dominant (for righties) tend to keep their head rigid as they have trained themselves to stare at the ball with their right eye and cannot move their head for fear of losing focus of the ball.

The old adage of keep your head still is bad advice!!! I'm not sure I would advocate starting the down swing with the head however. It seems the feet, legs and hips would be a better initalization focal point.

[rharris06]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

"if you started your downswing WITH YOUR HEAD you would have to time it to perfection" I didnt type it correctly in the first place.

Ive given my opinion, no more posts from me on this thread.

[msklar92]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

From the shots I have seen on TV of Tiger, he seems to have some vertical movement of his head down towards the ball on the follow through. In any case, one of the big reasons beginners come over the top is they have too much lateral head movement on the down swing, pulling the club and shoudlers with it. Mike.

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi timothy
i think you make some real good points and agree its hard to have no head movement,sam torrance does it but he is only one i have seen, i think like you said some head turn, i think of it more like a fixed spine that runs through your back and through the head and the body rotates around it going back and head does the same, turns a little but dont sway and then a sway of the hips at they start to turn to make room for the hands to come through. your head allways seems to be in the middle of your feet and seems to be what helps you balance, it only really starts to move after the balls gone and your arms are passing your left hip and your follow through.
bill

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

From the shots I have seen on TV of Tiger, he seems to have some vertical movement of his head down towards the ball on the follow through. In any case, one of the big reasons beginners come over the top is they have too much lateral head movement on the down swing, pulling the club and shoudlers with it. Mike.

I will try and clarify my stance.
I am not saying to TRY and move the head, I am saying technically the head does move FIRST but of course who would think move the head? not my point at all.
did nayone look in a mirror and shift their weight right to left and watch what their head does?

also, I dont agree that most players lunge, I thought I was lunging before I figured this out. THe forward head movement HAS TO happen to shift the weight so when people think "get to my left side, shift weight, etc...." if the head stays back then they will not get to the left side or shift the weight.

My whole main focus or point is that the head moves OFF the ball on the backswing and this will ALLOW for the forward head movement in the downswing and put their head over top or past the ball.

yes, tigers head goes left and down and this allows the weight to shift to his left side. one thing you can trust me on is I have put lines up on his head MANY times and looked at his swing on their, that head shot view is great!!!

WHy do I feel not many people are aware of this? For one outdated instruction. ALso, most swing sequences show the whole golfer so when the head looks small it is hard to notice how much it really does shift, which for most good players their head goes about half a head (3 inches) away from the ball on the backswing. The one on nikes website is great because the head takes up most the screen.

Ricky has not offended me and I hope he continues in the discussion as I hope everyone here will as well. I enjoy this and I am just trying to help others see what I believe I have found out, (with much thanks to Bmans site) which I did not know before.

Dont worry guys I will not be making a website where I say "to start the downswing lunge your head and kick your foot at the ball while having a reverse overlap grip and the butt end of the club stuck in your belly button"


I am just asking that you take the time to think about what I am saying and look into it, that nike website should show you what I am talking about. So put up some lines and have an open mind to what I am saying, take the five minutes to look in a mirror and shift your weight right left right left and see what you head does. and lets discuss further, if you wish.

good luck in the search
neil

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Hey Bill:

First off....good luck to your boys this weekend. It should be a great Ryder Cup. Lot's of good story lines already. Cheers.

With respect to this thread, flexibility plays into this as well. Someone who is very flexible may be able to achieve the full turn without much head movement. Freeing the head to swivel during the swing can certainly make it easier to get behind the ball for us less mobile. As I started using this key as I usually do, I overcooked it a bit and really started moving my head basically along with my shoulders. I could really make a great turn but timing did become an issue. So I throttled it back a bit and now I just swivel my chin slightly & primarily with the driver and it gives me just the freedom I need. No longer ball bound and fighting to get the left shoulder under the chin. Now I just let the chin ride a little with the shoulder and I can deliver the club well inside the ball due to getting well behind it at the top.

I also having been working on my set-up by establishing my spine tilt which I had neglected. I was getting stacked at set-up over the ball with too much weight on my left side and needed to sway in the backswing to get behind the ball. By combining the proper set-up with a good tilt away from the target & slight head swivel I am stricking the ball very well of late.