shoulder plane / tilt set up

[bdbl]

Do any of you set up with your rear shoulder lower than your front shoulder?

I realise that by virtue of the grip the rear shoulder is going to be a little lower than the front, my question though is whether people increase this difference by tilting their upper body? and if so then why? by how much? for which clubs? etc.

The reason I ask is that I have been struggling so badly (an unbelievable OTT heave) with my woods off the tee that I no longer take them out - teeing off with a 6I or rescue club.

Working on them in practice I tried, for no particular reason, tilting on the last dozen balls in the bucket; there was a marked improvement and I seemed almost pushed into a more in to out swing.

However I think we have all experienced false dawns at the range where a change coincides with a temporary improvement; hence this post to ask if there is any reason that the tilt would help and therefore I should persevere.

Cheers.

[Martin Levac]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I tilt my shoulders because my hands grip the club at different points and I want to maintain my arms straight. If I were to maintain my shoulders even, I'd have to bend one arm or grip the club differently, both of which I don't want to do. I also address the ball with the club tilted forward.

Are you fighting this OTT move by trying to do the opposite? Instead, try going with the OTT move, try to exagerate it. It's a method that enables one to trust one's self. If I continuously fail at something, I'll lose confidence in myself. Instead, I build confidence by willing to do what I normally don't want to do. Instead of trying to do the right thing, I try to do the wrong thing for a change.

You could say it's like a trick of the mind but you wouldn't fool yourself into thinking you're doing one thing when you're actually doing something else. Instead, you'll be learning how to do something with confidence.

It's a change of perspective. Instead of thinking of right and wrong, I think of success and failure. It depends entirely on the comparison of intent and result. If they match, it's a success. If they don't match, it's a failure. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong anymore.

"I know how to swing OTT repeatedly and with consistent results."

Instead of:

"I don't know how to stop swinging OTT."

It's a common problem that many people have. We are scared of failing therefore we never consider trying to fail on purpose to learn how we fail. Because we remain ingnorant of the cause of our failure, we can't avoid it and continue to fail.

Instead, I learn how to fail so I know with certainty that this move, this method will produce failure. Then, I can learn how to avoid it in the future.

That's what we mean by we don't learn anything from winning.


Martin Levac

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Interesting perspective on learning, to a degree I'd agree that you have to know how to fail in a task or activity in order to progress towards consistent success (a simplification of what you said).

The strange thing with the OTT move though is that to a large extent I'm through that learning curve except with the damned wood in my hand.

If I'm on the tee with say a 6I I know how far I can hit a ball and since its not 200+yards I (mostly) just swing; with a wood something (subconscious?) take over and I HEAVE THOSE SHOULDERS.

The "tilting change" at the range probably just distracted me from thinking about hitting the ball long enough for me to just swing.

Perhaps I should have posted this on the psychology forum so that some one can sugegst a way to repeat the trick.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Interesting perspective on learning, to a degree I'd agree that you have to know how to fail in a task or activity in order to progress towards consistent success (a simplification of what you said).

The strange thing with the OTT move though is that to a large extent I'm through that learning curve except with the damned wood in my hand.

If I'm on the tee with say a 6I I know how far I can hit a ball and since its not 200+yards I (mostly) just swing; with a wood something (subconscious?) take over and I HEAVE THOSE SHOULDERS.

The "tilting change" at the range probably just distracted me from thinking about hitting the ball long enough for me to just swing.

Perhaps I should have posted this on the psychology forum so that some one can sugegst a way to repeat the trick.

I can only suggest that you consider all your clubs as having a "7" marked on them. Swing at the same tempo with the same swing as your seven iron. OK, the swing plane will be flatter due to the club length and you should alter the relative ball position. Another consideration is to maintain your spine angle and swing around it, that's why your right shoulder will drop down and under your chin in the downswing.

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I can only suggest that you consider all your clubs as having a "7" marked on them. Swing at the same tempo with the same swing as your seven iron.

100% accurate advice; which believe me I do give myself, one day I hope to take it

Seriously though, that is absolutely the solution; I need to work on tempo, tempo and tempo until I have formed a new swing habit.

[takinitdeep]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Achieving tempo comes to one when you finally give in to the fact that being out of sync produces only bad shots and when you get sick of that happening over and over, you committ to good tempo.

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I didn't bother playing this week but went to the practice ground instead, mostly alternating batches of 5 balls between mid / short irons and a 3W with the single intention of replicating the feel and the tempo of the iron with the wood.

After a little while it clicked, and until the last dozen ("lets make these special"), I was hitting some OK shots.

So, some work to do yet and so far only the range, but thanks for the sound advice - my winter resolution is to commit to tempo

[shootin4par]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

bdbl,
if you focus on balance and learn to keep in balance then you never have to worry about tempo, Hogan stated that he did not give much thought to tempo, but he did talk about the importance of balance

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

bdbl,
if you focus on balance and learn to keep in balance then you never have to worry about tempo, Hogan stated that he did not give much thought to tempo, but he did talk about the importance of balance

Shootin,

Is it not possible to be balanced but swinging too fast or slow, or with a mismatched back and down swing? I would suggest that both are very important.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Taking my last post a little further I would suggest that Tempo and Rhythm are important factors here. Most people have a natural tempo that is in tune with their personality. Rhythm is the thing that balances the golf swing through good swing mechanics.

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I have to apologise and confess to some ignorance as to terminology here and say that I used "tempo" in the earlier posts as a kind of short hand for what I'm trying to achieve i.e. a smooth, balanced swing where the length and pace of the swing is controlled - which isn't asking for much really - and its that "swing feeling" that I find so elusive with the woods and which I am now working on capturing.

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I have to apologise and confess to some ignorance as to terminology here and say that I used "tempo" in the earlier posts as a kind of short hand for what I'm trying to achieve i.e. a smooth, balanced swing where the length and pace of the swing is controlled - which isn't asking for much really - and its that "swing feeling" that I find so elusive with the woods and which I am now working on capturing.

Hi BD (what's your name please?)

Sorry if I am confusing the issue, I got in a bit of a debate with Shootin there.

Tempo relates to the speed you swing the club, most people have a natural tempo that matches their personality, people that walk and talk slower tend to have a slow tempo, the opposite with fast talking people. It is quite hard to change your natural tempo although most people start off swinging too fast then settle down to their own speed.

Rhythm is the relationship between your backswing and downswing, it is best to work on pulling them closer together, most tour players have around a 3:1 rhythm.

So, back to my previous advice, try and keep the tempo and rhythm the same with all your clubs. Many Golfers speed up with longer irons and woods due to a natural desire to ht the ball further this way. As you will now be aware, the length of the shaft will give you the distance with the same swing tempo and rhythm.

Hope this helps?

[shootin4par]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Shootin,

Is it not possible to be balanced but swinging too fast or slow, or with a mismatched back and down swing? I would suggest that both are very important.

I dont think it is possible to have a mismatched swing and be balanced, that defies "balance". Close your eyes and swing in balance, find where you body is in balance , and you will not have bad tempo.

[bdbl]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

Sorry if I am confusing the issue, I got in a bit of a debate with Shootin there.

Not at all confusing, in fact, although the two of you might seem to be disagreeing, I think you and shooting are describing two sides of the same coin - imo you can't be balanced without rhythm and you can't have rhythm without balance. Or if you can then the sum of the parts etc.

So, back to my previous advice, try and keep the tempo and rhythm the same with all your clubs. Many Golfers speed up with longer irons and woods due to a natural desire to ht the ball further this way.
Hope this helps?

It does indeed; you reinforced what deep down I already knew. The difference is that now I'm committed to achieving that.

Hi BD (what's your name please?)

Thanks

Robin

[BrianW]

Re: shoulder plane / tilt set up

I dont think it is possible to have a mismatched swing and be balanced, that defies "balance". Close your eyes and swing in balance, find where you body is in balance , and you will not have bad tempo.

Shootin, I think Robin is correct we are saying a similar thing in different ways. I am referring to Tempo as the speed of a swing and Rhythm as the ratio between back and down swings. To be in balance you must have a good rhythm, tempo does not affect it.