Greg Norman's "secret"

[bill reed]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

hi Brian
do you think you gain much distance with your wrist action.
have you tested with and without using the "extra home run hit." i would think it would only be a few yards extra but I'm sure you will put me right on this as i have never been good using my wrists for that extra hit.
as you know in my game i hold off my wrists turning over.
do you feel its a trade off with distance against ball control and finding how much of that trade off suits your game.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

hi Brian
do you think you gain much distance with your wrist action.
have you tested with and without using the "extra home run hit." i would think it would only be a few yards extra but I'm sure you will put me right on this as i have never been good using my wrists for that extra hit.
as you know in my game i hold off my wrists turning over.
do you feel its a trade off with distance against ball control and finding how much of that trade off suits your game.
cheers
bill

Bill,

It adds the same type of power as rotating the wrists but is not as subject to the timing issues of wrist rolling, it is carrying out a similar action in that it releases the wrist hinge with an additional boost. It's difficult to say but I believe it can give me 30 yards on a drive and assists in keeping the clubface square for longer so I don't think there is any trade off with control.

It's easy to try with say an 8 iron doing some half swings to get the feel.

[bill reed]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

hi Brian
that sounds good.
is that 30 yards on a good drive and then it drops down in proportion to the club you use.
i remember AJ Bonner going on about the wrist hit for more distance but when i tried it the ball went every way but where i wanted it to and was hard to judge if it went longer
i know your game has steadily improver a lot in the last couple years so your doing something right and a lot of AJ Bonner students said it worked for them.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

hi Brian
that sounds good.
is that 30 yards on a good drive and then it drops down in proportion to the club you use.
i remember AJ Bonner going on about the wrist hit for more distance but when i tried it the ball went every way but where i wanted it to and was hard to judge if it went longer
i know your game has steadily improver a lot in the last couple years so your doing something right and a lot of AJ Bonner students said it worked for them.
cheers
bill

It's not really A J Bonar, he promotes rotating the wrists and that can be a little tricky to time, Nick Bradley wants the wrists to move more in the horizontal plane. It does work well with a one plane swing where the left arm extends in the backswing while the right folds, the right extends in the down swing while the left folds, the wrists should not be rotated in this action but rather pushed through.

The following link is to a drill for the Moe Norman swing, I am not using this to promote this swing although it does have much in common with one plane swings. See how the wrists are used through impact, it is very similar to the "Puck" release.

http://moenormangolfacademy.org/inst...thRelease.aspx

[bill reed]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

hi Brian
i found the clip very interesting.
i find it hard to play golf that way, with the club being open then square then closed in such small space and in at such speed.
i can better set my club face with it conning into the ball square and staying square till after the ball is well on its way.
i feel with my way of swinging, timing at impact is not important as the club looks at the target a few inches before and after impact so you can play the ball a bit to far forward or back without messing up your shot.
i was never that good at timing the open to closed club head and when i played that way and hit a draw i was never sure where the ball would end up.
with the square to square club face i get the ball to go where I'm aiming most of the time,
i do lose some distance between 5 to 10 yards on a drive but i do know where the ball will land most of the time.
you must have real good timing to play the way you do and get that extra few yards out the ball.
i know how well you contact the ball with your swing and get good compression too and i do find it impressive that you play so well with a system i found so hard to play with.
cheers
bill

[lfb]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Check out Sergio Garcia's swing. He maitain the right wrist cock very well (some call it lag). The commentators during the PGA Tour event last week mentioned it as a key to his swing and did a slow motion analysis of it. Sergio said he worked hard on developing it as a way to gain more power and distance. I don't have time to search for a video online on Sergio but I have seen them out there. Just google it and you will see him in slow motion hitting with the right wrist cocked.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Hello All:

For those confused and conflicted about the right hand drill, greg normans secret, cupping, swatting etc.... please read and reread and keep reading gregs post #38 in this thread. It is clearly Greg Willis' best and most pasionate plea to all of us on this website.

He is explaining the cruel trap that this game presents and that is that we use our wrists conveniently but also incorrectly to compensate for making an inadequade golf swing. The swat is a very flimsy attempt to make up for lack of hip, torso and shoulder rotation.

Look at a quality pro swing and you will see an incredibly athletic and dynamic use of the body to propel the golf club. The release of the club and eventaully the wrists that you see is a result of this athletic move. The incredible hip speed and consequent shoulder firing is what allows such prodigious length. The hands basically just hold their position, left hand flat , right cupped at impact. They will release later after the ball is well on its'way on a straight path.

Greg is trying to change your entire concept of the golf swing because he knows the dynamics that work. Swatting does not get the job done consistenly. It never has and it never will.

It's called the right hand drill but do not fixate on the right hand only. Greg is attempting to promote an entire body fueled golf swing. This will not happen overnight. For many with an ingrained swat it will likely take months of hard work to change your game. You are going to need to improve flexibility, strength, coordination, footwork, hip mobility and clubhead speed.

I believe it's worth it. Thanks again Greg for not letting this matter rest.

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

I have tried it a number of times and find it a very unnatural way to hit a ball. The shoulders have to rotate such that you are almost facing the target at impact, this can so easily create an open clubface.

I have the greatest respect for Greg and many people seem to get on well with the RHD and Secret but I don't see top golfers using this method. I agree that most good ball strikers maintain a flattish left wrist but they do not have an overtly cupped right wrist at impact, most have their shoulders square or only slightly open at impact.

The body does need to rotate in a good swing but the club also needs to be released through impact, I cannot see how this is possible with your right wrist locked.

I have explained another method of releasing the club by pushing the right wrist under the left through impact as promoted by Justin Rose's coach Nick Bradley in his book 'The seven laws of the golf swing' The way the wrists are used through the impact zone becomes a problem if other factors like weight shift, striking the sweetspot and swingpath are creating poor contact.

I am not suggesting that locking the wrists and facing the target at impact cannot work, I am suggesting that this is difficult and not something commonly used by top golfers. I would also suggest more focus on the way the clubface contacts the ball and is released past it will be of more benefit generally.

To conclude, I have given a contrary view to the RHD an Secret and am happy to debate it further but must make it clear that this is my personal considered view and not meant to cause any disrespect to others views.

[LowPost42]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Somewhere around here is talk about the 3 releases:

The block or push release as advocated by the RHD and Secret.
The slap-hinge as Brian describes above.
The crossover heretofore unmentioned in this thread.

No surprise they all work.

As for power transference, they're listed above in weakest to strongest - part of the reason why Zach Johnson is short and Bubba Watson is long - check their releases. It's ALSO part of the reason why Zach is much more accurate than Bubba - the passive release in the block-type takes a ton of timing out of the swing.

Brian is also correct that this is an un-natural movement. The natural hitting motion for humans involves wrist motion. However, as stated by Ben Hogan, if you reversed every natural instinct then you'd likely have a perfect golf swing!

However, in the quest for more distance, Greg is correct - flippy, swatty swings will get you nowhere. Adding loft to the club and flipping it is great for a cut lob, or any other shot where you're trying to get the ball up fast - but it's certainly a distance killer.

Once again, I've been checking my fundamentals (stance, grip, alignment), and for me, how I set my wrists is very important (as years of baseball have me roll my forearms rather than actually set my wrists).

I'm a RHD guy. When I simply turn my shoulders back, set my wrists, and keep them set, the body turn is all I need. Like Brian states, I feel very open at impact - it feels like "I should have hit the ball by now". However, it's lasers to the target (give or take 5 feet).

The beauty of the RHD and a body turn is that it really makes the swing simple. By no means is it impossible to hit balls any other way, but the RHD takes less timing of the hands through impact.

Ultimately, both drills are designed to stop flipping through impact (and stopping the clubhead from beating the hands to the ball). That you get there is far more important than how you get there.

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

I still don't see it Ben. Can anyone show me a video or photo of a top golfer striking the ball with their shoulders facing the target? I am very good at the short game and can pitch a ball well, I have my shoulders facing the ball at impact just like I do with all shots. I think that it is straight forward to impact the ball while your shoulders are square and will actually prevent errors. It leaves me how you can produce laser accuracy when your arms are no longer connected and in the centre of your chest.

Look at these impact positions and note the slight cup in the right wrist and the position of the shoulders. If I stop the video Greg uses in his RHD student lesson where he gives an example himself at the end, his shoulders are square to target at impact.




This article is interesting as it comes from the Shark himself and seems to fly in the face of his Secret. I am also a proponent of allowing the arms to slow and enable momentum to pass through the wrists to the clubshaft as it comes into impact: http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/fitness/fitness24.php

[GregJWillis]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Shoulders "facing" the target is only explained in the wall/impact drill. By no means do I expect this position in a true swing. The dill is only meant to add a big ol' stretch to the lower back, and get the feeling exaggerated.

Once this position is perfomed in the drill, a real swing is so much easier to allow the shoulder to get "past" setup (flat) position.

Those pics are perfect examples of the shoulders past setup.

[BrianW]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Hi Greg,

In your RHD video you say and show that we don't want the shoulders rotating 90 degrees into impact but 180 degrees so that the cup in the right hand and bend in the right arm can be maintained. Surely this means that the shoulders are facing target at impact.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

It does yes. But from the drill's perspective again. It is designed to get the idea exagerated. In reality when you take it to the course and in a normal full swing you are probably something like 10-25 degrees open. If I said in the drill, "Turn 117 degrees" you would think I was nuts. So I like to take things to the extream in getting those that are fighting bad habbits to feel this new idea and think of it as an extream and eventually you finally get to where I want to be...something past where you were before...that's all the drill are meant to do.

In my expierence, I see lessons and tips always understood right away. As time and overall awareness wears off, you revert back to the old habbits and loose the idea. So enforcing an extream idea helps this idea stay entrenched.

[lfb]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.a...0&select2=5894

Interesting Golf Channel discussion on wrist lag and uncocking of the wrists. The coach in the segment talks about how the wrist action is a natural byproduct of the swing and should not be forced.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Greg Norman's "secret"

Hello:

And I thought the Presidential debates were intriguing.....nothing compared to the RHD debate......

At impact if the left wrist is flat, which by almost any standard it should be, then the right wrist must be bent back (cupped) assuming both hands are on the grip.

The photos of Karen, Tiger and Ben clearly show the shoulders slightly open but the real key is the more open position of the hips. This is the key behind Gregs "wierdo wall drill" (no offense Greg but it looks a little funny all pressed up against the wall). You need to get the sensation of that powerfull stretch created by the differential of the hips and shoulders.

For those that say it is possible to actively use the right wrist to close the clubface a resounding yes you certainly can. When I was a proficient swatter on my best days I could get it around in 70 something which is not bad for a weekend player. Problem was the next round where I could easily shoot 90 something. As a RHDriller or push releaser or whatever I am now, I take my wrists out of the equation horizontally and just use them to vertically release the club down. My torso is creating the horizontal turning or closing of the clubface. As a result my dispersion is tighter, my striking more solid and my scores more consistent. Timing is and always will be part of golf but by taking the timing of the hands/wrists and spreading it to the slower moving larger muscle groups, I am a better golfer and very happy for it.

When I first saw Gregs video on the RHD I thought he had to be kidding. How could you possibly hit a golf ball without swatting as I had done for 15 years as a self taught (oxymoron....heavy on the moron) golfer?
It took a least six months to get the concepts of the RHD working but it forced me to expand my stretching capabilities and development of the real power muscle groups. It was not an easy process and I already had good set-up and grip fundementals. The swatting seemed natural and RHD unnatural but such is the nature of golf. Still, I persisted and it paid off.

Also, it is easy to fixate on still photos of impact and other positions but they can be misleading as the golf swing happens at 100 plus miles per hour as far as the club is concerned. Any position that is captured by photo is fleeting in real time. The impact position you see where the shoulders are fairly square or slightly open to the target line will have the shoulder wide open just a split second later. I prefer to utilize all of the great video clips available to use as a learning tool. Even in slow motion, I get a better sense of the swings dynamics than looking at still photos.

The debate goes on......