myths in golf

[Ian Hancock]

Re: myths in golf

hi
also the bend of the shaft (lag) can also open the face a little and how do you control how much bend you put on the shaft on your down swing, there are so many things that happen in 1/100 of a second i find it hard that some of you think you can control it with your wrists ( aj bonner). the longer you can keep the club head on plane the more chance you have and i think that a tall guy with a more upright swing does this more than a short guy with a flat swing, but if the short guy uses his hips just before impact the short guy can make the impact zone longer as he is comming into the ball flatter than a talls guys steeper aproch.
bill

I love this Bill, great contribution,

This explains why club fitting is so important, especially the shaft, also the lie for the more vertically challenged, like me at 5ft 10inches, I am a one planer and as you say I have to slid slightly and then rotate my hips more than a 6ft+ guy,

I am still with Brian,

my opinion is the club face stays straight for a good few inches through impact with both types of plane...............................why are my divots lovely and square...........????

Sorry another spanner.

Ian.

[cyc53870]

Re: myths in golf

In the distant future, when the swing is taught better, a golf historian might actually stumble across these archives and publish them so as to show how we debated upon the endless secrets of the golf swing.

This weekend I am gonna have fun as usual but with special emphasis on keeping the clubhead square as long as possible, proper alignment, shoulder and hip coordination, etc... Yes, a smoother swing, hopefully.

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

hi gonavy
i do agree that the shaft bows out towards the target and give loft to the club, driver most, but some guys with fast swin speeds also can have the shaft bowed back as there swing down, look a woodsin slow-mo.
just before impact the clubhead overtakes the shaft in most cases but sometimes its the outher way, the clubhead dont overtake till just at impact, having a forward press and taking a few % of loft off the club does seem to work for a lot of golfers. again so much happenes in only a few 100s of a second and so many golfers do diffrent things in getting the club head to the back of the ball there is no right way to do it.
bill

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

hi ian
does your diviots start with the heal of the club first touching the grass or does it start square. does it end squre too or a little more to the toe, also is it shallow divet, i know i tend to take a shallow divot and i'm 5"8 my friend is 6"2 and his divot are shorter than mine but tends to be deeper. i tend to sweep more.
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: myths in golf

Hi Bill,

exactly the same my regular golf buddy plays off +2 and he's around 6ft 1inch, takes a deep divot,

Me being shorter maybe, I am not sure about that, but my divots are 'normally' with a better shot, start approx 1 inch past my tee peg 3 to 4 inches long and almost perfectly 2 inches wide for the most but tail off thinner at the end, as I obviously come back inside.

They are quite thin also, my mates are least 1 inch deep, somtimes you can see his hands at impact struggle through the turf, but he hits it a mile and a very good player, tour standard................not sure mentally though.

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

That's interesting: I am around 6:0 Ft, with my new irons I take a wide divot that tapers towards the end, I used to get a narrower divot with my old clubs as they did not have the correct lie and tended to hit with the heel. I do take a deep divot with my lofted wedges, normally remove a reasonable toupee trying to get some spin but hardly anything with fairway woods.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: myths in golf

Hi Brian,

I know that my divots are near perfect in shape due to club fitting, when I hit the ball it marks the tape on the bottom dead centre.

It just goes to show how important club fitting is.


Not to mention, the face must be square to achieve this............!!


Ian.

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

hi ian
sounds like you have been fitted well, it does make you feel so much more in control when you know your clubs fit you and when you do hit a bad shot its your fault and not your clubs. i do often hear my playing partners blame there shot on there clubs when you know it was someting they did wrong,


bill

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

Hi,

Regarding shaft flex: The shaft will flex backwards in the downswing unless the shaft is too stiff for the swing speed, it will then remain relatively straight.

If the shaft flex is correct for your swing it should start to spring forward in the latter part of the swing and become straight at impact while releasing the additional energy into the ball, if it does not return square at impact the clubface will be aiming off.

If the shaft has bowed forward before impact the shaft will have too much flex and will also be aiming off.

See this site:

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/De.../flex1.php?ref=

[Martin Levac]

Re: myths in golf

Brian, what you just wrote about is also a myth. The link you provided includes every detail of that myth. It basically says that the shaft will be loaded and then will be unloaded which will in turn provide an extra boost of speed and that this mechanism is different at different shaft flex.

Compare two shafts.

For equal swing speed:
The supple shaft bends more.
The rigid shaft bends less.

That's normal up to this point:
The supple shaft unloads more energy than;
The rigid shaft at;
Slow swing speeds while;
At higher swing speeds it's;
The reverse.

That above is exactly what the vendors want us to believe. "Oh, for a slow swing speed you're better off with a more flexible shaft because it will suit your swing speed better and blah blah blah."

"Oh, for your higher swing speed it's much better if you take a stiffer shaft because it will suit your swing speed better and blah blah blah."

In reality, any shaft will get loaded with exactly the same energy at the same speed but because two shaft are not exactly the same, they will bend differently. The fact remains that the energy put into the bend is exactly the same for both shafts at the same swing speed.

The law of conservation of energy:

The energy extracted from a system can't exceed the energy put into the same system.

Compare the two shafts again:

For the same energy:
The supple shaft bends more.
The rigid shaft bends less.

Centripetal force.

You've heard of centrifugal force. It doesn't exist. Look it up for yourself. There's centrifugal tendency, centrifugal velocity but no centrifugal force. What does exist is centripetal force: Towards the center, that's what centripetal means. Gravity is one form of centripetal force, so is holding on to the club as you swing it.

Another law of the universe, that of the conservation of momentum and other motion:

An object in motion tends to remain in motion. Objects in motion tend to move in a straight line.

The club wants to go straight but you hold it with your hands and your hands are attached to your body and your body wants to remain right where it is and it is a whole lot heavier than the club: The club goes around your body. You apply centripetal force.

What does this centripetal force do to the club? It will bend it so that its center of gravity will align itself with the force you apply to it. Remember the term Release? Well, that's the work of centripetal force. The club wants to go straight but since you hold it with your hands it will whip forth upon release because its center of gravity will want to align itself with the force being applied to it. You apply centripetal force. The more centripetal force you apply, the more violent this action will be.

Perhaps you've seen the shaft bend at the top of the backswing. That's fine but that's only because the club is changing direction. It wants to remain in motion as you swing it back and forth so it bends to protest this change of direction. But what about the bend we see on the downswing? It's facing backwards. That's quite normal, you see. The center of gravity of the club is behind the shaft. As centripetal force is applied, the shaft wants to bend to align the club's center of gravity with the force being applied to it so it appears to bend backwards. In fact it does bend backwards, just not for the reasons you thought it did.

But what about the shaft bending forward at impact? That's quite normal and it's not because of some fantastic unloading of some kind. As the club is turned to square the clubhead, so is the shaft turned. But the line of force of the centripetal force you apply still remains and the center of gravity of the club still remains and they both act the way the must because that's the way things act when you apply force to them. Also, as the clubhead slows down, the shaft wants to continue moving in the direction it was moving so it bends forward for a bit until it slows down as well. But you already knew that. Boing! Like a spring.

What if you wanted to swing faster so that you'd catch up with this centripetal force + center of gravity thingy? You can't. As you apply more speed, you must also apply more centripetal force to hold onto the club which then produces more shaft bend, well not more bend just stronger bend. Which requires more force to fight and so forth. The more centripetal force you apply, the more violent the release will be. What if you stop applying centripetal force? Well, that's called throwing.

But what about the shaft that appears to unload through impact? That's quite normal as well. As the clubhead strikes the ball, it transmits some of its momentum to it. As it transmits some of its momentum, it's normal that it itself has less momentum of its own. So it slows down. So you apply less centripetal force. So there's less tendency for its center of gravity to align with the centripetal force's line of force. So the shaft bends less.

So many words.

What is not a myth is that the more supple a shaft is, the less precise it is. It follows that the golfer who plays with such a shaft will be less accurate than with a more rigid shaft.

Compare the two shafts again but this time with all the information:

For the same energy or the same swing speed:
The rigid shaft bends less and is more accurate.
The supple shaft bends more and is less accurate.

Furthermore. Since the same energy is applied to both shafts, the ball will be struck with the same energy therefore it will go the same distance.

But what about what happens to a supple shaft as it gets loaded and then unloads at impact so that there's more dynamic loft and so forth?

If you truly want more loft at impact, get a higher lofted head. And a stiffer shaft just to make sure you have all the precision you want with your club. Perhaps you'd prefer to lose a bit of accuracy just to get more loft at impact? That's ridiculous. Loft is one of those things that you can buy in a box. The vendor wants you to buy a whole bunch of clubs with all kinds of loft.

Scratch the last part of the comparison. As the ball is struck with the clubs, it will be propelled at the same initial speed but since the supple shaft bends more so that there's more dynamic loft at impact, it will have more spin and it will be launched higher so it will go higher, go less far and will stop quicker.

I promise you that it much easier to learn and play with proper equipment than with improper equipment. In my mind, anything that reduces and restricts one's own potential is improper equipment. The proper equipment will not increase your ability but improper equipment certainly will restrict it. Supple shafts is that kind of equipment: It will restrict your potential ability to that of the shaft's precision.

Ask an archer about his equipment.

All of the above is part of the "purchase equipment based on your ability" myth. The vendor certainly wants you to buy ten sets of clubs from him as you improve. Even if you don't improve. Even if you grow worse. Even if you don't play golf one bit. I promise you he does.

The bottom line.

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

Jeez Martin! That's a bit deep for me.

I based my post on the information in the previous linked site, these people seem to understand their golf physics. I also considered in a good swing there are two lag phases, the initial at the higher part of the downswing and the second that takes place during the late release where the shaft is loaded again late in the swing. There are also some pictures that have influenced me (See below). Maybe I have it all wrong but can you explain these pictures and maybe you could tackle the Tutleman folks for giving out false data.

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

hi brian
i have always been under the same impresion as you about the way a shaft bends and the pics i have seen seem to back this up just like your pics do.
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: myths in golf

Alright, some more myths that were thought of because of defective optical apparatus.

The focal plane shutter.

The basic focal plane shutter is made of two rigid curtains. The opening curtain and the closing curtain. To begin exposing the film, the opening curtain is drawn across the focal plane to expose the film to light. To stop exposing the film the closing curtain is drawn across the focal plane to stop exposing the film to light. These curtains move across the focal plane at a fixed speed.

Exposure time.

Since the curtains move across the focal plane at a fixed speed, we must use a different method to change the exposure time at will. We use a delay between the opening and the closing curtains. As this delay grows smaller for shorter exposure time, it will come to a point where both curtains will move across the focal plane at the same time. In fact a slit will form between the opening curtain and closing curtain. Such a phenomenon will occur at exposure time of 1/1000 of a second, etc.

Moving object, moving curtains.

Beginning of exposure, beginning of movement, short exposure time.

As the object moves across the focal plane, the opening curtain exposes the film to light. Then the closing curtain follows closely so that an exposed slit moves across the focal plane.

As the object moves further, a different part of the film is exposed to light because the curtains continue moving as well. And so forth until the whole film is exposed from top to bottom or side to side or bottom to top.

Each part of the film is exposed at a different time. At each of these different times a different part of the object is captured on film on a different part of the film. The bottom of the clubhead, the top of the clubhead, the bottom of the shaft, the middle of the shaft, etc right up to the grip, the hands, etc.

So it goes that the result will be an optical illusion whereby the club appears to bend this way and that. It is entirely possible to make a club appear to bend in an unnatural way simply by turning the camera 90 degrees from horizontal.

The club moves at high speed, the curtains move at high speed. Both move a distance within that time. So they take a period of time to move the distance. It is within this time that the optical illusion is created. Take a look at old pictures of racing cars, especially the wheels.

For this optical illusion to disappear, the camera must expose the entire film surface to light simultaneously. That means, during the same infinitesimal tick of time. That is just impossible.

From this optical illusion, many frivolous theories have been developped to account for it. None of which take into account the camera's own faillibility. The optical illusion was taken at face value.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD-xVUwkMtY

Incidentally, JackFook is my user name on youtube.

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

You did not answer my point on secondary lag

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

hi
yes thats true if using old cameras but not if using tv and slowed down that is using i video-con and is line scaned, also same if using didi cameras, ping use to have a fast scan camera on its ping man robot and you use to get the bend on the back swing and the bend as club head passing the shaft just 1/1200 of a second past inpact and you could see the ball compress too. there is a few clips of woods driver doing same with his nik ball.
you see the same thing on a lot of the swing speed cameras the makers use for there drivers.
i tend to belive what i see and not what i'm told till i am convinced diffrent, so far i'm not convinced that a shaft dont bend, just talk a driver a wiggle it and the shaft bends and you use more force when on a full swing, the weight of the head at it changers from bach swing to forward has to bend the shaft some.
bill