Talent versus Practice

[Neil18]

Re: Talent versus Practice

OK. That post has won me over. Well written. Clear. Simple. Logically unquestionable.

I'm with Monsieur Levac! (and Scragger)!

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Talent versus Practice

There are fundamentals in golf.

Although there are many ways of swinging a golf club, the concept of golf fundamentals become operative when one chooses a certain style of swing. For example, if one wants to swing a golf club in a certain way, for example like Ben Hogan, then you have to learn a whole series of golf fundamentals that apply to a Ben Hogan style golf swing. For example, Ben Hogan starts the downswing from the bottom-up with a definite hip shift-rotation movement. Therefore, it becomes a golf fundamental to place tha ball well forward in one's stance when swinging like Hogan. It would be contrary to the fundamentals of Hogan's swing style to place the ball near the back foot. That's just one example. Other Hogan fundamentals would include i) having passive hands and not actively flipping the hands through impact; ii) having an arched left wrist at ball impact and not a scooped left wrist ; iii) having wrist lag in the early downswing and avoiding casting.

I am not saying that one needs to swing like Hogan. I am merely saying that when one decides to use a certain golf swing style, that the particular golf swing style has a whole series of golf swing fundamentals that must be realised if one hopes to perfect that golf swing style.

I never debate whether one golf swing style is better than another swing style eg. Hogan's lower body swing versus Leslie King's arm swing or Moe Norman's natural golf swing. I am merely saying that each golf swing style has basic fundamentals, and one needs to learn them if one wants to perfect that swing style.

Jeff.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Jeff Mann, in response:

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...l#post10533032

It addresses only "the fundamentals of the golf swing".

[SevenBall]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Yeah, its logical in theory but golf is a practical application.. You show me a guy after 3 years that has just tried to send ball to target and I will show you a really good D-Grade golfer..

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Martin,

Nobody here has suggested that one should not practice to become better at golf or anything else, It's pretty obvious you need to do that (just look at my signature). The only point raised relates to whether practice in it's self makes perfect.

Regarding Hogan, have you read his book? He explains quite clearly that he studied the best players at the time and previously to understand what it was they did to make them better than others.

You talk of the swing plane and how golfers swing on different planes, flat, steep etc. swings that are too flat or too steep create poor results through poor ball contact, the best swings return to the ball on the plane that was set at address. OK there are a FEW accepted, tried and tested ways of getting the club to the top and back to the release position but from then on whats different?

As you say, you can swing the club any way you want, do it, there is no law against it. I am an Engineer and I believe strongly in sound engineering principles, they have been developed over a long period of time and have proved to produce the best results, and they do. Regarding golf, I believe sound principles are the best way to build a repeatable swing, there is no law against that either. OK there are some slight variations on these principles that are OK, many of the best players have their personal slants but they are not so different and due mainly to body type or early misconceptions, probably never designed.

Martin, you are obviously a clever person and have an opinion that you are passionate about. You have tended to use semantics a lot in your argument though and I find that a little patronising to the members here. I cannot see much merit in myself continuing this debate now as the opinions are too entrenched.

[GoNavy]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Just to add a little more to this thread, I was getting ready to watch to Superbowl, and seeing the Bears got me to reminess a little.

I played high school football with Dan Hampton, you know the hall of fame bears player, retired, played during 79-90, defensive tackle. Well when we were in high school, we played on the same team, Jacksonville Arkansas high. I was a defensive end. We got the same coaching, we did the same practice, I worked just as hard as he did, so what was the difference ..talent and genes...during that time I was 5'10 maybe 140 Lbs, even then he was over 6 foot and 200 Lbs. He went on to play in the NFL, I never played beyond high school. So what does that have to do with golf. It shows that in any professional sport, it takes more then just training and practice, you have to have desire, the genes and talent to play at the highest level. Granted golf doesn't require the genes quite the way pro football does, but it does talent, hard work and practice still won't be enough without it.

[edshaw]

Re: Talent versus Practice

There are so many factors that enter in.
Ben Hogan stated the 70's were in reach
of most golfers, provided the fundamentals
were learned. Tommy Armour stated he
could take strokes off most golfers' games
just by handing them the right club; i.e.
course management. Were these great
players just being modest? Hogan practiced
until sundown and Armour virtually lived on
the range his entire life.
I don't think we will ever know the answer
to the question posed at the head of this
thread. I'm 63. If I knew at 10 what I know
now, I'm quite sure I could have it down
to a nine today.

[ogallalabob]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I definately think it is a combination. It's like throwing a baseball, some people by can throw it 100 mph, others no matter how hard they workout, practice, and follow instruction would not break 80. I do not care how much coaching, practice or instruction few people on earth have the talent to hit the ball as far as Tiger, Phil .... Now it is possible that a player still can compete but he has a smaller margin for error and has to be more precise in other areas.

[B11NONGOLF]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Well My Two Cents To Pandora Box.
We All Can See In The Pga Tournaments Lot Of God Players Good Mechanics Hit The Ball Miles And Putt Straight But The Few Choosen Ones Got Something More You Can Call Gutts...or You Can Call It Luck Me Personally Call It Talent; Be Not Afraid To Go For It. Not Been So Conservative And Be Afraid Of The Consecuences Have You Notice Most Of The Time Who Ever Won Is Because During A Tournament Came Up With A Unbelivable Shoot?
That The Diference Betwen Good Players (practice Make Good Players And Play By The Book) And Great Players (the Few Not Afraid Of Risk It All Don't Get Me Wrong Great Players Also Practice ....a Lot

[cb44]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I can guarentee you that Tiger and Phil were not the only ones to be taught at an early age. They are where they are because they had the gift, and that is what separated them...

True, many people have "the gift" in many different endeavors. Yet, many people without "the gift" are able to overcome their lack of "the gift" and succeed.

Granted, having natural ability is a double plus, but it's not the end; even with less than the natural ability of a "Tiger and Phil," one can do very well at golf--scratch or better, which is true in many endeavors other than golf.

One has to know one's limitations and adjust accordingly in order to be successful.

[Renton405]

Re: Talent versus Practice

Lotsa of it has to do with genetics.. THe other part practice from a very early age and a good teacher from the begining.

Someone who has praticed since he was 3 years old is bound to be good by the time he's in his 20s.. Everybody has a different swing, but one thing I notice is that nearly all PGA golfers have the same position at impact.. The genetic part comes with how well you can time your muscles, eyes and hands with your club.. like music ..some people are just more proficient than others..

Many great golfers started golf when they were 3 and over though.. So all that pratice and sorting out your swing is very important. I don't see any good golfers who are PGA who havent played golf since they were a kid..its just so rare..

[BrianW]

Re: Talent versus Practice

I recently read an article on Bobby Jones, now there was a man with natural talent.

From 1923 to 1930 Bobby Jones captured an amazing 62 percent of the national championships he entered, winning 13 of 21 tournaments. He won five of eight U.S. Amateur Championships, and finished second in another. He won one of the two British Amateurs he played in. In eleven of the last twelve open championships he entered, he finished no worse than second, winning seven times. In 1926, Jones became the first player ever to capture the "Double," winning the U.S. and British Open Championships in the same year. In 1930, he accomplished the Grand Slam, winning the British Amateur, British Open, U.S. Open, and U.S. Amateur all in the same year.

He hung up his clubs through the winters and retired from competitive golf at 28 years old.