My free online review of the golf swing

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

four frames after impact the ball disapears because sneads body blocks it.
what shot was he hitting a huge cut? Or is it that the camera angle is not pointing down the line. the other picture does not have stress on the shaft so I would not hold in too high of a regard either, either that or the picuture is before the transition. That pic of hogan, if was at start down, should have some shaft flex. You got to be able to pic these out in a few seconds, remember you asking brian about the difference in the two pivots, which was obvious. Why do you say snead does not shift his weight? did you read that, come up with it from looking at pictures? Lifting heels is not weight transwer, you are not sticking to that story are you? and did you read what mcclain said about his weight being on his left side "Note how his right heel is slightly up at impact, his weight well on his left side". I am aware of hardys method, read the book many times and saw him in person at the golf channel on his first taping of the one plane swing method. I have seen chuck quinton in person too, his swing looks like sergio. I am familiar with the method. I cannot go word for word on hardy anymore because I got rid of the book along with about 30 others that did me little good but helped me to understand how far off most, not all, are

and the main difference between sneads swing and tigers is the pivot action on the backswing. Snead has a compound pivot where the base of the spine pendulums so to speak, and tiger swing back like he is on a door frame with 3 hinges. Snead is closer to having one pivot center on the backswing, tiger is much closer to having three. Then tiger has to establish one pivot center on the downswing, snead already had that established. before he even got to the top, that is what made his swing a step ahead of most evveryone else. What do you mean when you say that they both had total body swings?

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Shootin4par

I am sticking to my belief that Snead's lifting up of the left heel in the backswing does not imply weight transfer.

See his swing sequence at -
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...8samsnead.html

I have captured one image from that sequence - when Snead is at the end-backswing position.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Snead-LeftKnee.jpg

Note that his left knee is kicked in and his left heel is raised. I believe that it is due to his pelvis rotation. Note that Snead rotated his pelvis much more than Hogan or Woods and that his belt buckle faces well to the right. Despite that degree of pelvis rotation, he didn't have much weight shift to the right because his right pelvis moves back to the left as he pivots over the slightly flexed right knee, while his upper torso shifts slightly to the right. The overall weight shift (upper and lower body) to the right is not that great in the backswing.

Snead obviously did shift weight to the left side on the downswing, but he definitely didn't have as much hip shift in the initial hip shift-rotation movement as Hogan. His "in-to-in" swing plane is a reflection of his around-the-body swingarc around a centralised spine.

Total body swing only means that one uses the upper and lower body to power the golf swing, instead of being an "arm swinger".

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Two easy ways to shift weight, Cmays may know more, the center of gravity is your belly button around 3 or so inches inside of it for most people. In snead if you put a dot on it, he moves this to the right on the backswing, that is shifting the center of gravity, which shifts the weight. In tiger he keeps that realitively the same in the backswing, as his 3rd hing on the door woudl remain in roughly the same place all the way to the top. But it is his upper body that moves to the right and not so much his center of gravity. So keep your COG in the same spot and move your head, or move your COG and keep you head in relatively the same spot, both move weight. More then one way to skin a cat and more then one way to shift your weight. again why does tiger double cross? anyone on tour that you know of not a total body swinger? and last question, if I said you could have tiger or snead as your swing model, who would you choose? Just stand at address and move your COG from side to side and feel the weight shift, then do that and allow a turn and see if your heels want to lift. Of course snead turned more with his hips, look at his right foot, not square to the line like tiger

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

By allowing the hands to come out a little in the back swing, they travel back in on the downswing and there is your Parametric Acceleration. If you want to know about squaring the club face then it will cost you a few to get me out the front door.
You Guys have fun, remember see if you can always try to show the actions that you are speaking about, later.

Mr. Mays, why you use words that I have to look up to learn what you are talking about. Isnt it your responsibility to explain everything to me so I can get something out of your words? I had to look into parametric acceleration and now I understand it no thanks to you
thanks for the easy to try demonstration, really easy to see what you are talking about, now I got to go work on my parametric acceleration. SO basicallly as the club is releasing around a fixed axis, if that axis pulls up at exactly the right time the acceleration will increase
a few of what would get you out of the door, beers, sodas, or bottles of water? Yes, the students need to be able to see the teacher do it, visual, I believe, is our second strongest sense when it comes to learning.

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

again why does tiger double cross? anyone on tour that you know of not a total body swinger? and last question, if I said you could have tiger or snead as your swing model, who would you choose

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Shootin4par

What do you mean by the term "double cross"?

I personally prefer TW's swing.

I don't personally know of any "arm swingers" on tour.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

jeff, this is why I question you, it is the basic things that you cannot answer. Tiger talks about double crossing himself all the time. On the pros vs joes thread you did not know how only 25% of weight was on each foot at impact, you had to have explained different pivot options on another site cause you did not see the difference You say snead does not shift his weight, where did you get that from, you dont know the difference between a compound pivot and a reverse one. the website looks like a cut and paste website and people who dont catch these things think you got it right and instead of following the advice of cmays who is number one here by a long shot, they follow you. only two people agreed with me on your website, I got a lot of ridicule for it because I disagreed and stated a contrary opinion. Your stuff is written/copied well but to me that is it, You said you want to make it easy for the beginners but yet you choose tigers swing over sneads. Sneads is more natural and tigers is more mechanical. Nature should always prevail. I posted three set up drills , two of which I got from somewhere else, but I would be very suprised if you heard of more then one of those. Most of todays golf digest super 50 talkers, dont know much about the body and there books show it. get a good tour player and you get a name and get more good tour players who got there before they even met you and your name grows Tweak one thing right and you are now god.

You talk about a total body swing and say it is the modern swing but yet you cant tell me of a player who swings primarily all arms, so does that mean they are all total body swingers and the only difference is one plane two plane butt plane shoe plane? here is a hint in tgm terms, who are the Hitters on tour, they are the arm swingers and there are some out there.

how many people have you taken lessons from, besides books and here how many instructors have you talked with for any extended time etc, besides books where do you get your golf knowledge?

But then again look at our socioty and the things we worship, money, cars, woman, power, pills, alchohol, and the glamorous life where it is not about who you are and the substance you have inside but how you appear to others, your website looks good and that is why people like it. So keep telling your followers that snead does not shift his weight, they will beleive you just like you beleive the book or person who told you that, nevermind the fact that his left heel is off the ground at the top of the backswing.

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

actually mr. Mays it is a combo of #1 and #2 by seeing the light on the other side cross eyed it distorts your perception during the in between phase of this side and the other side, so when you come back to this side you are left confused and dont know which eye is pointing in the crossed direction, and during your swing he tries to line the ball up with his left eye and that putts it too far back in his stance, so he then changes to his right eye and that puts it too far forward.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Shootin4par

You are free to disagree with my point of view. You are also free to post your own alternative point of view. However, there are consequences that occur when you rabidly insult my knowledge of golf biomechanics. The consequence is that I will no longer interact with you, and respond to your posts. You are free to continue to insult me if it gives you satisfaction. I am confident that forum members who are sympathetic to your insulting comments are not going to be sympathetic to my point if view, and that's OK. This is a forum for the free interchange of ideas, and I do not favor censorship of any individual's opinions.

Jeff.

[tony_teetime]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Shootin4par

What do you mean by the term "double cross"?

I personally prefer TW's swing.

I don't personally know of any "arm swingers" on tour.

Jeff.

Double Cross is a common term in golf where a player intends for a slice and hits a hook, or conversely, intends to play a draw and hits a slice. Let's imagine a righthanded player has aimed left of the target with the intention to cut across the ball to slice, but compounds this by hitting a hook, which moves left as well ... is known as double cross in golf. As knowledgeable as you seem to be , I'm surprise you have never heard of that term.

As far as "arm swingers" goes, off the top of my head I would think David Toms , Lee Jansen, Tom Watson, Jack Niclaus. There are many more, but I can't put the names to the face at this time.

For reference:
My definition of "arm swing" is someone who swings with arms and then the body reacts to that motion.... as oppose to the opposite philosophy of the body pulling the arms or the body being the initiator and the arms are the reactor ... other wise known as the "dog wagging the tail"

Both of these philosophies are fine and there are no correct ways of doing it. It's just a matter of preference and what ever triggers your downswing so that it would react and execute desired sequences in order to achieve a good result. There are many ways to skin this cat so experiment and choose your technique.

There are no wrong way to swing as long as you adhere to the basic fundamentals (setup/posture/grip/<swingplane- hogan's plane , not hardy's plane>) . Just have fun and keep experimenting until you find the desired technique and then share the knowledge that you've gained from that experience.

Anyhow don't take my word for it, or any other "popular" instructional book or guide as matter of fact. Absorb the knowledge from those informations , but please go out and field test it for yourself and come up with your own conclusion, not some one else's conclusions . You will be more sastified in the end .. and the people reading your "own" concept or philosophies will appreciate it more. .. I guarantee it

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony,

It is nice to read a contrary opinion that doesn't primarily insult the person with a contrary point of view.

I agree with your definition of an "arm swinger" as a person who primarily swings the arms in the downswing and allows the body (torso) and legs to respond reactively to arm movements.

I have found two websites that promote that idea of "arm swinging".

1. Leslie King's website.

http://www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/index.html

2. Peter Crocker's website.

http://www.petercroker.com/englisch/...olferapril.htm

Accepting your definition of an arm swinger, I don't know of any PGA tour player who is an arm swinger.

I certainly don't think that Nicklaus was an arms swinger, although, like Watson, his arms swung along a very steep arc. Nicklaus himself states that he powers the swing with his body starting from the bottom-up. On pages 148-152 of his book "Golf my Way", Nicklaus describes all the feelings that he has when he starts the downswing. He writes about shifting weight back onto his left foot, shifting his pelvis and thighs to the left and getting his lower body weight to the left side. He states "it is always my legs and hips that motivate the club". [Nicklaus' italics]. He then states-: "normally I have a distinct feeling that my left shoulder is moving up, and my right shoulder is moving down as a consequence of my lateral leg thrust". Then he states-: "Normally, I have the distinct feeling that my right hip is thrusting forward and down or "under" in concert with my left shoulder moving up, and thus pushing my left hip laterally towards the target" [Nicklaus' italics].

In other words, Nicklaus is describing lower body/leg and torso movements. He does not talk of initiating the downswing with his arms. What does he say about the arms/hands? He only makes the following statement-: "But I have no sensation in my hands and arms. They are relaxed, passive "free agents". At no point do I consciously try to accelerate or decelerate them; I simply let whatever is happening to them go on happening".

If you really believe that Watson, Toms, or Jansen are "arm swingers", who swing their arms primarily and allow the body to respond passively/reactively, then I would like to see the evidence.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Shootin4par

You are free to disagree with my point of view. You are also free to post your own alternative point of view. However, there are consequences that occur when you rabidly insult my knowledge of golf biomechanics. The consequence is that I will no longer interact with you, and respond to your posts. You are free to continue to insult me if it gives you satisfaction. I am confident that forum members who are sympathetic to your insulting comments are not going to be sympathetic to my point if view, and that's OK. This is a forum for the free interchange of ideas, and I do not favor censorship of any individual's opinions.

Jeff.

you have another point of view from what i believe to be a limited perspective and the limited perspective is what I am talking about. I could always be wrong about that, I have been wrong many times before. When you choose tigers swing over sneads, yes I do quesiton your biomechanical knowlege, snead won in 6 decades tiger will probably not do that unless he makes a swing change on that driver. No arms swingers/hitters on tour, go tell the tgm boys and see what they say about that. there are a few hittiers out there and one of the past ones had his own army debates are good for the advancement of society, dont take it personal. I call you out, you call me out. I can handle it. I had left this post and your followers criticized me after I had said I would no longer post here. SO then I came back with some evidence

[tony_teetime]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony,

If you really believe that Watson, Toms, or Jansen are "arm swingers", who swing their arms primarily and allow the body to respond passively/reactively, then I would like to see the evidence.

Jeff.

Let's look at this from a logical perspective, and for the ground rule, we will use Jim Hardy's definition of One plane and Two plane. .. since that seems to be widely acceptable these days.

Lets review the ground rule:
One plane : Shoulder rotate around the spine and player swings arms on the same plane as the shoulder line

Two plane : player rotate shoulder on a flat plane around his spine , but his arms are moving on an upright plane or angle hence the term "two plane" .



Everyone would agree Watson, Toms, and Jansen would be classified as "two planer" per Mr. Hardy's definition : Do you agree ?

Therefore, if they are "two planers" ..... then we can say their arms are acting independently from the shoulder turn and the body. correct ?

Now in the case of the "one plane" swinger, his arms rotate on the same plane as the shoulder turns around the spine. His down swing is powered by his body /shoulder pulling the arms. This is the opposite action of the "two planer" who has his arms swinging independently.

Going back to the "two planer". On their downswing , their arms must act "independently" to sync up with with the shoulder plane as they rotate shoulder back to impact..... and if they are using their arms independently from the shoulder and body , I would classify them as "arm swinger" .

Make sense ?

[BrianW]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony,

I don't see that much difference between one and two plane swings, they both work on two planes as I see it.

In the one plane the higher plane is above but parallel to the plane at address due to the need to lift the arms to create width and distance. In the two plane there is the address plane and the plane set from the ball passing over the shoulders (Hogan's sheet of glass).

In both the arms need to be dropped back down to the lower plane in the downswing.

Or I may have it wrong!

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony,

Hardy's ideas about the 2PS doesn't make sense to me - with respect to PGA players.

PGA tour golfers vary in how high their left arm is relative to the shoulder turn - at the end-backswing.

According to Hardy, anybody who has a left arm that is higher than the shoulder turn is a 2PS golfer. That includes Tiger Woods, whose left arm is minimally higher than the shoulder turn to Tom Watson/David Toms/Jim Furyk who have very high left arms. The fact that the left arm is much higher than the shoulder turn doesn't imply that those golfers actively use their arms to power the golf swing. I suspect that only a small subset of 2PS golfers do that - have an "arm-powered swing". The majority of 2PS golfers drop their arms into a "slot" at the beginning of the downswing while simultaneously powering the swing with their body (hips first, shoulders second). You could argue that the "arm dropping" phenomenon is active, rather than passive, and I could easily agree on that point. That's why I stated in my review that the dropping of the arms (movement of the right arm to the side and right elbow to the right hip area) in the early downswing should be regarded as an active movement. However, that arm-dropping maneuver doesn't actually power the downswing. It is an active "arm dropping" maneuver that occurs simultaneously with active body movements (hip shift-rotation and then shoulder rotation, in sequence).

Here is an example. Take an obvious 2PS golfer, like David Toms.

Look at his dowswing - see http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Toms-DS.jpg

In image 1, he is at the end-backswing position. Note that his left arm is much higher than his shoulder turn.

In image 2 - early downwsing. Note that he leads with his right elbow (which is below the left arm). Note that he has shift-rotated the hips which are now square, while the shoulder are back.

In image 3 - he is at the delivery position with his right elbow alongside his right hip. Note that the hips are open to the ball-target line, while the shoulders are square.

Do you really believe that the hip movement (in images 2 and 3) are reactive/passive and occurring in response to the arm movements?

David Toms' appearance in image 2 and 3 is identical to the appearance of Aaron Baddeley or Tiger Woods (and most PGA tour players) at those same time points in the downswing - and those two golfers are definitely powering the dowswing with their torso (lower body first, upper body second).

Jeff.