My free online review of the golf swing

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony

Another point.

Consider the Hardy OPS. The left arm does not turn on the same plane as the shoulder turn during the backswing. What actually happens is that the left arm (which is near-vertical at address) is brought across the chest as the backswing evolves, and the left upper arm moves upwards across the upper chest as the shoulders turn. The amount that the left arm moves upwards during the backswing is less with a OPS golfer compared to a 2PS golfer, because it ends up lying on the same plane as the shoulder turn at the end of the backswing. In other words, the left arm has to move upwards in both the OPS and 2PS. It is only a matter of degree - the amount of vertical climbing of the left arm across the upper chest.

During the dowswing, both OPS and 2PS golfers get into a similar position where the butt end of the club points at the ball (when the left arm is parallel to the ground). A 2PS golfer has to drop the arms much more to get into that "clubshaft slot", while the OPS golfer's clubshaft only has to drop a small amount. Again, it is only a matter of degree - varying degrees of clubshaft plane shifts during the early downswing.

Jeff.

[tony_teetime]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Jeff,

You are really mistaken if you say many pros don't use armswing at all. Let me explain why there is a need for armswing under some circumstances.

There are two main philosphies in swinging.

1) The body power the swing and the arms trail the pulling body. Aka "dog wagging the tail" . This method is good for a power swing , but the downside is you loose the feeling for distance.

2) Then there are the Jim Flick/Bob Toski philosophy of the arms swinging and the hip and body reacting or staying in sync with the arms. I have found this to be good for feel and distance acurracy.

Do you ever watch a "great" wedge player hit 60 yds and in pitch shot ? The money shot or accuracy shot ?

How do they setup ?
(for righ hander)

They set up with feet left of the target and weight mostly already shift on the left leg? Why ?
Because this is a finese shot, an accuracy shot, they don't need power in this case as accuracy and feel is premium here. You will see them set with the weight shifted already and the left hip is already cleared because again power is not important for this shot. In this case they will use more armswing as it is a smaller muscle and can gain a better feel and distance and accuracy. You will rarely see "great" wedge player use core big muscles to pull the arms on these 60yds and in finese shot.

As far as generating powerful swing , then use the core body and big hip turn to pull and let the arms trail behind, as this will produce better lag and more mass behind the ball.

There are times when an armswing is good (for accuracy) and there are times when a body driven swing is good (for power). Great pros know the advantages between the two techniques and do use one or the other when the situation call for. To say that not many pros use "armswing" is just plain wrong. They do use and deploy the "armswing" technique.

Also , you will see great bunker/sand players deploy the same "armswing" technique also.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony,

I was really only talking about the full golf swing.

We are in agreement about what powers a short half-wedge shot - it is essentially arm-powered, and not body-powered.

Now, what powers the full driver swing in a golfer like Tiger Woods? One could argue that it is body-powered ("dog wags the tail" type of swing).

Now, what powers the full driver swing in a prototypical 2PS golfer like David Toms? If you believe that it is entirely arm-powered ("tail wags the dog"), can you provide evidence for your position? Do you really believe that the shoulder muscles pulling the left arm forward and the right arm down to his right side are powerful enough to move his central bulk (mid-torso and hips) passively into those body positions?

I personally believe that David Toms powers the golf swing with a simultaneous arm/body movement - the hips shift-rotate at the SAME time as the left arm is pulled forward and the right arm is pulled inward and the right elbow is pulled down. All these movements are active and perfectly synchronised.

Jeff.

[tony_teetime]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Jeff ,

We are going around in circles here as you are so obsess with being right and will keep believing what you believe. But understand this, I 'm not here to proove anybody wrong or try to force what I believe on other people . Heck, you can find just about any data or do your own study/research to support any theory right ? No thanks, I have no energy and time for that

Go back a couple posts above and read my post on the two swing philosophies again. I presented them as they are originally and added comments of my conclusions based on my own personal experience of having field tested them both (Almost 500,000 balls hit on the range and over 300 rounds of golf over the past 12 years) .

From the two philosophies of swing of which I spoke of in previous post. Each techniques have advantages over the other, but not one of them is perfect for all situation. Also, the "arm swing" technique applies to short iron shots (pw to 8iron) which place a premium on accuracy. Then for all swing that requires power, then you can deploy the "dog wagging the tail" technique. If you can grasp and understand that , you will become a better teacher and player yourself.

Anyhow, this is my last comment in this topic, but before I leave. I want to leave some food for thought so you may digest them later.

1) Golf is not a game of being perfect or about acheiving a perfect swing. A perfect swing do not exist, so don't waste so much time and energy looking for it. Golf is about building a repeatable/reliable swing that works under pressure. It does not matter which one of the two philosphies you choose or if they are ugly or pretty as long as they are repeatable is all that matters. It's also about managing your misses and putting your self in position for making the next shot easier. That is what golf is all about.

2) It's ok to be a student of the swing and absorb as much information about the swing out there as you can. But please .. please. go out to the range and pound at least 20,000 balls and test them in real on course scenario first before coming to conclusion. Once you come to your own conclusion, then share your beliefs with the masses. But, compiling some theories/philosophies from others and throwing it out on a website saying this is the way to achieve a "perfect" swing is just plain silly.... Then when someone questions something about it, you go and defend it like your livelihood is at stake . Come on man, why waste so much energy just so you can say "I'm right" , when you can use that same energy for testing those theories. Right?

I would probably enjoy reading the material/instructions from your website more , if they actually came from your beliefs and what you think after field testing them , rather than regurgitating someone's else philosophy.

Remember, you ask for comments and opinion of your website and I gave it to you as I see it.

Good luck searching for the perfect swing. I think you may find the perfect wife first before you find the perfect swing . I 'll give you a hint "no one is perfect"

[jambalaya]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Great discussion folks. I enjoy the back and forth serious challenges. I have been trying more of the body swing recently and think it will work better for me. My arms were definitely in control before. Now in the "body swing" I relax my arms and shoulders to allow them to be pulled around by my hip and shoulder turn. I find it very easy to rotate my arms around my spine this way using the big muscles of the body. I don't truly see the reverse as being true if I were to use an "arm swing" although I haven't really tried it. Could I relax my hips and shoulders to the point that the arms alone would pull everything else around? I should try it but I have my doubts. My guess it that in both instances we are talking about "primarily" a body or arm swing but not entirely.

The talk about shorter shots involving more of an arm swing reminded me of some problems I had in my last round. Before my swing change I had been hitting my wedges pretty well but incorporating more of a body swing with those cause some problems. I now see why more of an arm swing on those shots would be beneficial.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

Tony

I agree. We have expressed our opinions clearly and we know where we stand, and we therefore don't have to belabor this "arm swinging" point further.

You certainly have much more practice experience than me - 500,000 practice balls over 12 years. That works out to 41,666 balls per year, or 114 balls per day if you have hit balls every day of the year for 12 years, or 237 balls per practice session if you have hit balls three times per week, every week, for the past 12 years. Phew! That's a lot of balls.

I only hit about 150-200 balls per practice session, and I average about 3 practice sessions per week for about 8-9 months per year, for the past few years. Not as much ball-hitting as you, but enough to test all the different swing styles I have studied - I think.

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

cmays

I don't personally have the problem of tailoring golf instruction for an individual golfer, because I am not a professional golf instructor.

I simply wrote an online review (based on traditional golf instructional teaching) of a certain golf swing style - for beginner golfers. I have never stated that it is the swing style suitable for any particular individual, or that it is better than another swing style. I only propound the view that if a beginner golfer chooses to use the modern, total body golf swing style (as I described it), then there are a whole series of biomechanical fundamentals that have to be got right.

Jeff.

[tony_teetime]

Re: My free online review of the golf swing

I personally believe that David Toms powers the golf swing with a simultaneous arm/body movement - the hips shift-rotate at the SAME time as the left arm is pulled forward and the right arm is pulled inward and the right elbow is pulled down. All these movements are active and perfectly synchronised.

Jeff.

Jeff,
I would also agree with your assessment of Mr. Tom.

I did say that I will not comment anymore in this topic, however I just re-read your previous post/comment above and do see that you do understand what needs to happen for armswinger to make the swing work. Therefore, we are closer to a common ground, and I do feel there is value in continuing discussion

I have no idea why you were under the impression that I would think smaller muscles like the arms are what powers the swing , anyhow for the record, I do believe the big muscle is what does most of the work in powering the swing. But you can not deny armswingers do not exist at the pro level.

I do believe it does not matter if the swing is pulled by body with arms trailing behind , or the arms leading (armswing) and body blending with or staying synchronised with the arms , but one thing for certain ... the arms must stay in front of the chest at impact time to produce consistent good strike. So for the practicioner of the armswing, do not ever let the arms ever outrace the body on the downswing.

Now, the armswingers have to work harder to stay synchronized more then the body swinger would. So the main benefit of the body leading and pulling with the arms lagging behind (body swinger) technique is that it's hard for the arms to outrace the body. Also , it's easier for the arms to move faster to catchup with the pulling shoulder if needed , therefore it makes it easier to stay synchronised.

It may be to your surprise, but this technique (bodyswing) is one I use for 90% of my fullswing shot. The only thing I don't like about it is that I "feel" too mechanical using this technique, but I can't deny it as it is very effective.

However, I do prefer the armswing method for 3/4 and 1/2 swing shot as it give me more sensitivity and feel for distance .

[millenniumcow]

The "Perfect Swing".

Ok, so perhaps somewhere in this long, long thread, someone has already said this. If so, sorry. But ultimately there is no perfect swing, ever. It is the golf equivalent of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Keep chasing, but you'll never find it.

But ... 1. you can get close. But like the law of diminishing return, the better you are the harder you'll have to work to get even better. Nothing to say we shouldn't keep trying. I'm keen to explore all of the ideas raised in this thread, because they are all good.

And ... 2. The "perfect" swing is the swing that brings you the lowest score needed to satisfy your goals. If that be winning the US Open, or scoring the pennant at your local club then that's fine. That's why the answer to the question: "Did Tiger make a mistake changing his swing" is to me, "No". He is the world's No. 1, lightyears ahead of his rivals in the rankings. He is probably the best golfer the world has seen. I read in an old golf mag at the doctors the other day that Tiger and most of the worlds best golfers hit the fairways 65-70% of the time. The most accurate driver belonged to a guy ranked way down the list of rankings. Who cares what his swing is like. He gets the ball in the hole using a lot less shots than everyone else. That's what counts. Further illustrating my point, I played a game of golf recently with a guy that wung the club like he was chopping wood. He hadn't play for years and then picked up a borrowed set of clubs, took on warm up swing and hit the ball straight down the middle of the fairway. The ugly swing netted him a birdie on the next hole. I cursed because all of the work that I put into my swing to get it "perfect" doesn't get me birdies (yet). Life is unfair and it is always the guys with the ugliest swings that get the best scores, and so ultimately, like I said, if you get a great score then you have the "perfect swing".

Have fun lads!