Casting / Early Release

[takinitdeep]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Thanks...leaving the hands passive on the way down sounds so simple but for me, it's not. I understand the need to do it that way but I am struggling to control the hit impulse.

Can you elaborate on the point you made about the proper grip? I honestly feel as though I'm gripping the club pretty well in terms of where the club is in my hands/fingers, the amount of pressure I'm holding the club with, and in terms of how my hands are positioned (weak vs. strong grip).

Thanks again - Andy

Andy, if I may put my 2 cents worth in here, while the hands are considered passive in that they do not grab at the club, I do believe they should retain their angle, ie. back of left hand flat and right hand bent backwards going into impact.
Retaining the angle allows more lag, better crisp irons, and ascending blows with driver, long irons.
Dropping into the slot requires one to allow the hands to lead the downswing by dropping down as the lower body turns ahead leaving the hands, wrists etc. head staying behind the ball at impact.
The killer is when someone gets ahead of the ball too much.
Golf is all about angles.

[AFilbrun]

Re: Casting / Early Release

I appreciate your 2 cents.

I've struggled with this a while and have gotten to the point where I no longer see the club ahead of my hands at impact...I'm just about even so I have managed to ditch the chicken wing for the most part. I'm just hoping to keep working at it and keep improving.

Thanks for your input.

[jbrunk]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Having a good pivot makes "holding the angle" so much easier as it takes the focus off trying to "hit" the ball from the top. I also have found it helpful to feel as though I am dragging my hands past the ball just after I have changed direction. Good luck.

[AFilbrun]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Take a driver and grip it at waist high, the hands side by side and swing it back and forth and there is no tempo or timing, lots of casting going on.

Right handed golfer:

Now grip the club in the left hand and put the right hand on 1 inch below the left hand. Feel how the left hand has handle now to work with.

Slide the right hand down and keep that angle, feel the left hand having a handle to hold on to.

I have never had to tell a student about timing or tempo or casting because of opposing hands.

Another method is gripping it in the left hand and placing the right hand on with the right wrist bent.

Under this section Marryanne posted a 6 minute video of Andy teaching Sean, notice how he is telling him to grip the club and also the practice with the split hands.

All this bull**** with equal hands are just that.

To be able to control the club starts with what we do with the grip.

Thanks. I had not seen the video but I found it, and will check it out.
I like that quote... "...the game is not hard, it is the person behind the game who is looking for too much that makes it hard."

I suspect that's a large part of my problem.

[AFilbrun]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Having a good pivot makes "holding the angle" so much easier as it takes the focus off trying to "hit" the ball from the top. I also have found it helpful to feel as though I am dragging my hands past the ball just after I have changed direction. Good luck.

Thanks...that's a great visual for me to think about.

[Mike420]

Re: Casting / Early Release

I've been trying that o-factor thing and I found that once I got loaded up onto my right side it was hard to let my hips rotate first and just let the arms ect go a long for the ride as it were. I found it easier to simultaneously pull my hands down and turn my hips, but has anyone got any suggestions on why it feels quite akward and anything that I could try?

Cheers

[Fairwayaway]

Re: Casting / Early Release

I've been trying that o-factor thing and I found that once I got loaded up onto my right side it was hard to let my hips rotate first and just let the arms ect go a long for the ride as it were. I found it easier to simultaneously pull my hands down and turn my hips, but has anyone got any suggestions on why it feels quite akward and anything that I could try?

Cheers

Don't let "rotate" be your first hip movement thought. Keep your hips level going back. Now, your first move down is posting UP INTO your left hip. It's not a lateral slide. It's your left hip moving UP & LEFT. That is the only way you can create the room for your right shoulder to move DOWN & THROUGH. Notice in all of the tour pictures, the players right arm is still quite bent and the right forearm is still in the "clockwise rotated" position as the hands are "at" the ball!! The players want their right arm bent at impact. To hit the ball they must "lower" the right side or they would top or thin every shot. Study those pictures. We must raise our left side (lower our right) for our right shoulder to take the correct path.
The "clockwise rotated" position can be obtained in the takeaway. Try it. You will find the club to be under your control very nicely. Once you get the forearms rotated, you have achieved the proper wrist "set". There is nothing more for your arms or hands to do except hold on until your lower body brings everything through. May I suggest "Greg Norman's Secret". That will take care of your arms/wrists. Look at Hogan's picture, his right arm is bent AFTER impact. Look at Vijay, his right forearm is still facing the sky WAY AFTER impact.
Left side UP. Right side DOWN & THROUGH. Hips level going BACK.
Your feeling awkward because there is no where for shoulders and arms to go except out and around (over the top). If you keep your hips level on the down swing and try to drop your arms, hands and right shoulder into the slot you will hit behind the ball, with a straight right arm. Your only recourse is to swing out and around. What we're all guilty of is making it too difficult. Once you get your head wrapped around this concept you will see how much more simple and efficient the golf swing can be.

See thread IMPACT Position / Right Hand Drill in this forum.

[AFilbrun]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Don't let "rotate" be your first hip movement thought. Keep your hips level going back. Now, your first move down is posting UP INTO your left hip. It's not a lateral slide. It's your left hip moving UP & LEFT. That is the only way you can create the room for your right shoulder to move DOWN & THROUGH. Notice in all of the tour pictures, the players right arm is still quite bent and the right forearm is still in the "clockwise rotated" position as the hands are "at" the ball!! The players want their right arm bent at impact. To hit the ball they must "lower" the right side or they would top or thin every shot. Study those pictures. We must raise our left side (lower our right) for our right shoulder to take the correct path.
The "clockwise rotated" position can be obtained in the takeaway. Try it. You will find the club to be under your control very nicely. Once you get the forearms rotated, you have achieved the proper wrist "set". There is nothing more for your arms or hands to do except hold on until your lower body brings everything through. May I suggest "Greg Norman's Secret". That will take care of your arms/wrists. Look at Hogan's picture, his right arm is bent AFTER impact. Look at Vijay, his right forearm is still facing the sky WAY AFTER impact.
Left side UP. Right side DOWN & THROUGH. Hips level going BACK.
Your feeling awkward because there is no where for shoulders and arms to go except out and around (over the top). If you keep your hips level on the down swing and try to drop your arms, hands and right shoulder into the slot you will hit behind the ball, with a straight right arm. Your only recourse is to swing out and around. What we're all guilty of is making it too difficult. Once you get your head wrapped around this concept you will see how much more simple and efficient the golf swing can be.

See thread IMPACT Position / Right Hand Drill in this forum.

I appreciate your comments. I really thought I was doing this right but went back through Greg's video again and realized I had slipped into more of a swat... Thanks for your info and thanks Greg for the great video.

[jbrunk]

Re: Casting / Early Release

I've been trying that o-factor thing and I found that once I got loaded up onto my right side it was hard to let my hips rotate first and just let the arms ect go a long for the ride as it were. I found it easier to simultaneously pull my hands down and turn my hips, but has anyone got any suggestions on why it feels quite akward and anything that I could try?

Cheers

Hey Mike, I am glad you mentioned the O factor. I read this and found it to be a bad idea for most golfers struggling with the same thing you describe. The poster who talked about the "lateral slide", or "hip bump" or "left hip movement" is correct. If you notice most, if not all, tour players have their tailbone closer to the target than the neck bone at impact. To do that they have to move to the lower body toward the target and out of the way first. I have found once you are doing this move correctly you hardly notice the weight transfer at all. I got it good when I started just turning (winding) my torso over an almost passive or immobile lower body. When I could not wind up anymore the recoil I felt from the top was actually my lower body moving back to the target and I could just nail it at that point.


I also found that article amusing when the guy said: "if any teacher tells you to lateral bump your hips first, fire him immediately" The golfing magazines are getting more and more full of junk everyday.


Good luck Mike.

[BrianW]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Hey Mike, I am glad you mentioned the O factor. I read this and found it to be a bad idea for most golfers struggling with the same thing you describe. The poster who talked about the "lateral slide", or "hip bump" or "left hip movement" is correct. If you notice most, if not all, tour players have their tailbone closer to the target than the neck bone at impact. To do that they have to move to the lower body toward the target and out of the way first. I have found once you are doing this move correctly you hardly notice the weight transfer at all. I got it good when I started just turning (winding) my torso over an almost passive or immobile lower body. When I could not wind up anymore the recoil I felt from the top was actually my lower body moving back to the target and I could just nail it at that point.


I also found that article amusing when the guy said: "if any teacher tells you to lateral bump your hips first, fire him immediately" The golfing magazines are getting more and more full of junk everyday.


Good luck Mike.

Hi Mike.

I thought the "O" factor quite a good way of understanding the use of the hips and the way that pulls the right shoulder and arms into the slot. You are correct stating that with top players at impact their lower body is closer to the target than the upper. To achieve this you must keep your head behind the ball even though your hips are further rotated and forward from that at address. Ben Hogan was teaching us this move fifty years ago and it still stands as true today as then.

[jbrunk]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Hi Mike.

I thought the "O" factor quite a good way of understanding the use of the hips and the way that pulls the right shoulder and arms into the slot. You are correct stating that with top players at impact their lower body is closer to the target than the upper. To achieve this you must keep your head behind the ball even though your hips are further rotated and forward from that at address. Ben Hogan was teaching us this move fifty years ago and it still stands as true today as then.

I feel the "rotate your hips from the top" teaches players (including me) to spin out and throw the right shoulder at the ball. I struggled with this for years, and couldn't figure out why I was hooking the ball off the planet on so many swings. Maybe its just a matter of the language being misinterpreted by the student. ****shrug****.

[BrianW]

Re: Casting / Early Release

I feel the "rotate your hips from the top" teaches players (including me) to spin out and throw the right shoulder at the ball. I struggled with this for years, and couldn't figure out why I was hooking the ball off the planet on so many swings. Maybe its just a matter of the language being misinterpreted by the student. ****shrug****.

yes I see what you mean. I think the misunderstanding is where people do not keep their shoulder turn while releasing the hips, this then drops the right shoulder and arms down and under as opposed out out and over.

[jambalaya]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Thanks...leaving the hands passive on the way down sounds so simple but for me, it's not. I understand the need to do it that way but I am struggling to control the hit impulse.

Can you elaborate on the point you made about the proper grip? I honestly feel as though I'm gripping the club pretty well in terms of where the club is in my hands/fingers, the amount of pressure I'm holding the club with, and in terms of how my hands are positioned (weak vs. strong grip).

Thanks again - Andy

You are right. It is not simple at all. I could not do it for a long time no matter how hard I tried. When I started the turn forward that shoulder and those hands just came with me immediately. My shoulder would throw out and then I would have to do all kinds of things to recover the swing on the way down to the ball. In order to get your hands passive, they have to start out that way. You can't all of a sudden just relax them at the top, it starts in the set up. Relax your shoulders, arms and grip and keep them that way. It makes it easier to leave the shoulder back and drop those hands down when you start your downswing. That triangle you make with your arms and shoulders shouldn't be thought of as completely rigid structure in my opinion.

[shootin4par]

Re: Casting / Early Release

im my observation
casting is not the hands or arms problem but more improper body motion. I want to get up to the top and increase my second axis tilt on the first move down. This makes it hard for the hands to outrace the body, this also set up my right shoulder to go downplane. Most casting is due to the shoulders turning to much on a horizontal plane
just my thoughts

[Martin Levac]

Re: Casting / Early Release

Andy, it appears you have all your bases covered in the technique department. Or so it seems.

Take a step back.

From what you wrote, it's obvious that you are still learning to play. Well then, let's go about it like you were in class and you could do anything as long as you learned something in the process. If instead you forbid yourself to do one thing or another, you will certainly not learn what this thing could, will allow you to learn as you did it. On this line of thought, I ask two questions:

Do you do something that, if you did not do, you'd not swing properly and as a result, you've always done it no matter what?

Do you not do something that, if you did do, you'd not swing properly and as a result, you've always not done it no matter what?

Just as an example, have you ever not thought about casting the club as you swung it? Quite a propos, don't you think? Another example, this one fictitious. You drive your car, every time you arrive at this corner, you hit the wall. You try and try but can't avoid the wall. As a result, this wall dominates your thoughts. Or if you prefer, you dominate your thoughts with the wall. Or if you prefer still, you focus on the wall. Is it your failure to avoid the wall that drives your focus on it or is it the reverse, your focus on the wall that forces you to hit it? It doesn't matter, you're stuck.

Take a step back. Get unstuck.

Forget the wall, focus on the road. There's no road? Make one. There's no destination? Give yourself one. But enough with the analogy. Focus on striking the ball properly.

As you focus on striking the ball properly, you won't focus on anything else. Such as casting the club, for example. Let's put it another way. As you focus on casting the club, you don't focus on anything else. Such as striking the ball properly, for example.

Some things to help you focus on making proper contact with the ball. Keep your head still. As you keep your head still, you are able to focus on the ball and as a result, you can be more precise in striking the ball. Keep your feet firmly planted on the ground. As your feet are firmly planted, they provide a stable base on which to swing the club and strike the ball allowing you to be more precise in striking the ball. Keep your left elbow straight. Not rigid straight but deliberately straight. You could bend your elbow but keeping it straight takes one thing out of the equation and that makes it just that much easier to strike the ball properly. Focus on making proper contact with the ball. This appears very obvious but in fact, we take it for granted that we must strike the ball properly and as result, we never focus on that. Focus your eyes on the back of the ball. You could focus your eyes anywhere but don't you think that it would be so much more useful to focus them on the point you're trying to hit with the club?