random thoughts

[Scragger63]

Re: random thoughts

Interesting comparison J Daly v C Howell III

Similar heights, so in theory their "levers" may well be much the same length.

Clearly differing weights, so momentum will build differently...

Last time I looked, very different swings. From memory JD really goes at it and CH tends to swing a lot smoother (happy to be told otherwise...)

Haven't researched what equipment they each use, but presumably they are not identical, in which case the club will become a point of differential as well.

For me, my gut says JD is longer probably because of a higher clubhead speed and possibly not much else.

The real question for me is, is he more accurate...??

Cheers


PS: Maybe this is the thinking smiley...

[shootin4par]

Re: random thoughts

I think I am correct in saying that muscles only pull, they don't push. So to generate power you should pull with the biggest muscles available. Have to scoot now!

yes, technically, and we are being technical in this discussion, that is true because muscles contract to exert force. the pushing I am talking about is pushing off the right leg, not pulling into the leftwhich pushes the right hip, which pushes the right shoulder, which pushes the right arm. In a baseball throw we get the power by pushing action, we push off the right side and the left leg is in the air was we step forward, if the left leg is in the air we have no resistance on the left side in which to pull from

take a shaft and stick in in the ground and tape a shaft on top of it and you form the letter t. that is your shoulders, now turn it back 90* and if you pull the left shoulder from there, that action will also cause the right shoulder to push, if you push from there it will cause the left shoulder to pull

the pencil analogy, and again I am just discussing, but I see it the same as swing a golf club. Go hit balls left handed and right handed, try to hit ten of them, do that and be honest and let us know which was harder or easier. also, when you pull you must rely on centrifugal force to release the club, and if it is off by a fraction of an inch you will top or thin, but when the right arm directs the club at the ball it does not rely on centrifigul force

howell, daly?
I think howell may have too much lag at impact he might have the most on tour, and lag means speed so if he released 3* more of lag he might get more speed and still have the same lag at impact as most on tour
the also, some people talk about weight helping, but I dont know the ins and outs of that stuff

[Scragger63]

Re: random thoughts

OK, I've done a little checking and offer the following:
(FYI - the number in brackets is their respective tour "rankings" for the 2007 season to date)

Driving Distance: John Daly - 307 yds (2nd), Charles Howell III - 298 (8th)
Driving Accuracy: JD - 48% (181), CH3 - 53% (174)
GIR: JD - 61% (133), CH3 - 67% (13)
Scoring Average: JD - 71.0 (95), CH3 - 69.5 (6)
Fed Ex Cup Points: JD - 502 (159), CH3 - 11,748 (3)
Total $'s Won: JD - $107K (164), CH3 - $2.4M (3)

So, the 9 yard difference in driving distance seems negligble. As does the Accuracy percentage differential. CH3 is more accurate whilst being shorter and hits more GIR's. This is arguably attributable to more factors than just accuracy alone.

Bottom line, CH3 scores and as a result earns better than JD.

Sorry, I was bored, I'm unsure what i actually set out to demonstrate now...

Cheers

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

yes, technically, and we are being technical in this discussion, that is true because muscles contract to exert force. the pushing I am talking about is pushing off the right leg, not pulling into the leftwhich pushes the right hip, which pushes the right shoulder, which pushes the right arm. In a baseball throw we get the power by pushing action, we push off the right side and the left leg is in the air was we step forward, if the left leg is in the air we have no resistance on the left side in which to pull from

take a shaft and stick in in the ground and tape a shaft on top of it and you form the letter t. that is your shoulders, now turn it back 90* and if you pull the left shoulder from there, that action will also cause the right shoulder to push, if you push from there it will cause the left shoulder to pull

the pencil analogy, and again I am just discussing, but I see it the same as swing a golf club. Go hit balls left handed and right handed, try to hit ten of them, do that and be honest and let us know which was harder or easier. also, when you pull you must rely on centrifugal force to release the club, and if it is off by a fraction of an inch you will top or thin, but when the right arm directs the club at the ball it does not rely on centrifigul force

howell, daly?
I think howell may have too much lag at impact he might have the most on tour, and lag means speed so if he released 3* more of lag he might get more speed and still have the same lag at impact as most on tour
the also, some people talk about weight helping, but I dont know the ins and outs of that stuff

OK, try this: Address a ball, bend your left knee so that you are standing on your left toes, now make a full backswing. Did you have any problem getting there?

Now address the ball again, take the club to the top, bend your right knee and stand on your right toes, make a downswing to the ball. Did you have any problems with rotation or club speed?

[shootin4par]

Re: random thoughts

this brings up some stuff I can try,
time to bring out the speed stick again and see some numbers, maybe this weekend if I remember

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

OK, try this: Address a ball, bend your left knee so that you are standing on your left toes, now make a full backswing. Did you have any problem getting there?

Now address the ball again, take the club to the top, bend your right knee and stand on your right toes, make a downswing to the ball. Did you have any problems with rotation or club speed?

So are you saying that the legs serve as stabilizers only? When I do this, if I am doing it the right way , I can still make a backswing and downswing. Now, I don't know how well I would hit the ball, but I think I might try it.

With the right knee bent, HEEL off the ground, toes only things touching the ground, I feel that I am loosing much of that DRIVE to rotate my hips.

I had to make a left hand turn with my car today using my LEFT HAND/ARM only (holding a cell phone). It took a little more effort. However, on the next left turn, with BOTH hands on the wheel, it was much easier to make the turn. The left hand/arm PULLED the wheel as the right hand/arm PUSHED the wheel - - - BOTH putting force in the same direction (counter-clockwise for this steering wheel example).

When I first met with my golf pro, he talked about getting to left side as the 1st move of my downswing. When I focused on my left hip only, I found it a little hard to do. But when I realized that I could START the move with my left hip and then use my right foot/leg to continue to drive my hip rotation, I started hitting the ball better. And very lately, with proper shoulder rotation, I am having really fantastic results.

So, I think a proper golf swing has a mixture of pushing and pulling forces. What feels powerful to me is to push off the ground and drive my shoulder down into the ball.

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

I wasn't really suggesting the legs are only stabilisers but they do stabilise the stance as the feet are the only contact we have with the ground which is the only constant in the swing.

I was rather questioning how important the pushing effect of the feet and legs are in generating swing power. I feel the legs and large muscle groups in them and the hips play a major role in generating rotational force by their sliding and turning action which is then added to by the large muscles of the back and torso, then the shoulders and arms and finally the small muscles of the hands. It has been estimated that to swing a driver at 100 MPH a force of 4.5 Horse power is required, the arms and shoulders working together as twinned pairs can only generate around 1 to 1.5 horse power, the other 3 to 4 must be generated by the legs and hips.

On the other hand I may have it all wrong!

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

I wasn't really suggesting the legs are only stabilisers but they do stabilise the stance as the feet are the only contact we have with the ground which is the only constant in the swing.

I was rather questioning how important the pushing effect of the feet and legs are in generating swing power. I feel the legs and large muscle groups in them and the hips play a major role in generating rotational force by their sliding and turning action which is then added to by the large muscles of the back and torso, then the shoulders and arms and finally the small muscles of the hands. It has been estimated that to swing a driver at 100 MPH a force of 4.5 Horse power is required, the arms and shoulders working together as twinned pairs can only generate around 1 to 1.5 horse power, the other 3 to 4 must be generated by the legs and hips.

On the other hand I may have it all wrong!

I read some of that horsepower talk last night. You are pretty spot on.

I gotta find this particular article again. It talks about how the golf swing works from the ground up. It talks about how players like Jack were known to have a strong "leg drive," but that it wasn't really a leg drive at all. It was more about feet starting the downswing and the weight transfer. It stressed the importance of having that sync in your swing from the ground up, not the top down like most amateurs have.

Thinking in terms of pushing & pulling might confuse most (it has got me in a tizzy). All things considered, I think it might be safe to say that proper hip rotation creates a lot of swing speed. The faster you swing, the farther you will hit the ball. If this is all sounds correct for the most part, how do you rotate your hips faster?

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

I read some of that horsepower talk last night. You are pretty spot on.

I gotta find this particular article again. It talks about how the golf swing works from the ground up. It talks about how players like Jack were known to have a strong "leg drive," but that it wasn't really a leg drive at all. It was more about feet starting the downswing and the weight transfer. It stressed the importance of having that sync in your swing from the ground up, not the top down like most amateurs have.

Thinking in terms of pushing & pulling might confuse most (it has got me in a tizzy). All things considered, I think it might be safe to say that proper hip rotation creates a lot of swing speed. The faster you swing, the farther you will hit the ball. If this is all sounds correct for the most part, how do you rotate your hips faster?

You can get the best speed from your lower body by using the best pivot point. If you look at the golfer in your avatar he is at impact but his head and shoulders are laid back behind the ball with his lower body turning and forward, this is because good golfers pivot their body around a point between the centre of their shoulders in the downswing.

Imagine a pin that pierced your body at a point just below your neck and the centre of your chest then came out through your back between the shoulder blades (Gruesome I know). In the downswing you should pivot around this imaginary pin so that your head, neck and upper chest tilt back from target, your torso and hips tilt and rotate towards the target whilst pivoting around this pin, this will generate a very powerful rotation indeed. This is not a reverse pivot, that happens when the pivot is much lower around the abdomen.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

You can get the best speed from your lower body by using the best pivot point. If you look at the golfer in your avatar he is at impact but his head and shoulders are laid back behind the ball with his lower body turning and forward, this is because good golfers pivot their body around a point between the centre of their shoulders in the downswing.

Imagine a pin that pierced your body at a point just below your neck and the centre of your chest then came out through your back between the shoulder blades (Gruesome I know). In the downswing you should pivot around this imaginary pin so that your head, neck and upper chest tilt back from target, your torso and hips tilt and rotate towards the target whilst pivoting around this pin, this will generate a very powerful rotation indeed. This is not a reverse pivot, that happens when the pivot is much lower around the abdomen.

Its a bit gruesome, but I can handle it

However, I am having a hard time with the comprehension of the "pin." Don't the shoulders pivot off the spine? So wouldn't the "pin" be vertical?

Maybe I am just confused

[shootin4par]

Re: random thoughts

that spot between the shoulders

if you take a face on view and put a dot on the screen 2 inches below the chin

now a line runs from the top of the spine/top of head, down to the base of the spine

also, a line runs across the shoulders

when you turn back, the base of spine line can shift to the right, in this case the spot between the shoulders has not moved.
also, the shoulders are in front of the spine so when the shoulders turn back, they will be behind the dot
the only thing that stayed stationary is the dot, not the spine

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

Its a bit gruesome, but I can handle it

However, I am having a hard time with the comprehension of the "pin." Don't the shoulders pivot off the spine? So wouldn't the "pin" be vertical?

Maybe I am just confused

You pivot in two compound directions, I was only referring to the one that pushes the lower body towards the target and keeps your head behind the ball as we were talking about generating speed through the hips and legs. You also have a vertical pivot to allow you to rotate back and forward.

[BrianW]

Re: random thoughts

Its a bit gruesome, but I can handle it

However, I am having a hard time with the comprehension of the "pin." Don't the shoulders pivot off the spine? So wouldn't the "pin" be vertical?

Maybe I am just confused

RH, The lower picture helps to show the pivot I was describing. As you can see the head, neck and upper shoulders are rotating back on that point centre of chest and just below the neck, the hips and lower body are pivoting forward from the same point.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

You pivot in two compound directions, I was only referring to the one that pushes the lower body towards the target and keeps your head behind the ball as we were talking about generating speed through the hips and legs. You also have a vertical pivot to allow you to rotate back and forward.

I was doodling last night and was able to draw myself an image. I actually recorded my swing last night, I don't look to darn shabby. But I can see the difference in these pivot point between "good" and "bad" swings. When I stay back and rotate, I hit a good shot. When I don't rotate or lunge forward, I hit a bad shot. I think I might throw it up on YouTube for others to comment, if I am feeling brave.

[RandomHero1090]

Re: random thoughts

RH, The lower picture helps to show the pivot I was describing. As you can see the head, neck and upper shoulders are rotating back on that point centre of chest and just below the neck, the hips and lower body are pivoting forward from the same point.

Sweet! Maybe I will make this my avatar I totally understand now. Thank you very much!

This is where, IMO, this people get screwed up. I have recently enhanced this move by focusing on moving my right shoulder down, BUT, making sure I transfer that lower body weight (ie: not hanging back on the right leg).

Now, back to the discussion at hand. If you look at that picture, the bottom one, focus on the right leg.....right heel starting to come of the ground, right knee driving forward.....that is the push power I am talking about! I feel that "power" transfer into the ball.