How to select a newer set of Irons

[jamesh]

During the winter months I am fixing on selling my current set of Callaway Hawkeyes (the ones before the VFT) for something modern. My brother-in-law picked up a set of Callaway VFTs for about $200.00 from eBay - he is very particular and won’t let any one try them – so I don’t know how they compare to my clubs.

What is a good, methodical way to go about getting a newer set of clubs? I suppose as your handicap drops, you should drop the high handicap clubs – and since I would want these clubs to be custom fit – they will have to be made form a kind of metal than you can bend. I heard forged irons offer more “feel” so I am considering them. Finally I want clubs which are at least a year old so they are discounted. I live in Toronto, and I wonder if there is a place where you can try some used clubs.. One outlet here will allow you to “rent” clubs for five days for about $30.00 which is terrific – your thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks,


James

[slater170]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

During the winter months I am fixing on selling my current set of Callaway Hawkeyes (the ones before the VFT) for something modern. My brother-in-law picked up a set of Callaway VFTs for about $200.00 from eBay - he is very particular and won’t let any one try them – so I don’t know how they compare to my clubs.

What is a good, methodical way to go about getting a newer set of clubs? I suppose as your handicap drops, you should drop the high handicap clubs – and since I would want these clubs to be custom fit – they will have to be made form a kind of metal than you can bend. I heard forged irons offer more “feel” so I am considering them. Finally I want clubs which are at least a year old so they are discounted. I live in Toronto, and I wonder if there is a place where you can try some used clubs.. One outlet here will allow you to “rent” clubs for five days for about $30.00 which is terrific – your thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks,


James

do some research on the internet to get an idea what you are looking for try golfreview.com. reviewers state what their handicap is so you can get a feel for what people play.
FWIW for the criteria you set out try out the mizuno mx-23.
these are forged so can be reworked, plenty off feel with them and the introduction of the mx25's and 900's should have driven their price down

[ilang]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

Yes you're right to want clubs where the lies can be altered.Most Pro shops have a trial 5 iron of a set,which will give you an idea of what shaft and club face suits you best.Dont forget if you do buy a set ,have the lies and lofts checked.

[a_hornsfan]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

I just got a used set of Taylor Made RAC Low Trajectory Irons for $200. I am stoked about it. These clubs are the perfect go between of a forged and game improvement.

Pardon my excitement but I am playing TM ICW 11's which are over 18 years old. I hate to give them up as I have had them customized to me, but the low trajectory COG on the RAC's is perfect for these Texas winds :-)........woo-hoo

[bdbl]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

I heard forged irons offer more “feel” so I am considering them.
Thanks,
James

Unfortunately I've lost the relevant link but "blind tests" overwhelmingly show that that most golfers can't identify any difference between cast & forged clubs by the way they feel either swinging or at impact or even by ball flight.

There may be other reasons [engineering tolerances? Brian - LP?] to go for forged - but "forged are better" as a general rule is probably marketing hype for most people.

[bill reed]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

hi
there are two types of heads being made and thats forged, where the head is pressed and stamped out a long flat bar by huge machines and the shape has to be kept simple so it can be pressed and no two clubs are identical in the same way cast clubs are. and there is investment casting, where the molten metal is poured into moulds made by a wax of replica the club head in wax and then casting it in ceramic and the wax is then removed and the metal poured in. this means more intricate cavities and intricate weight distribution shapes can be made. many years ago America had many really good quality foundries but now sadly only ping still have there own foundry and the also make aircraft parts and limps for the disabled so there foundry makes steel for other parts other than golf and thats how they don't have to go to china or japan for cheaper make heads like the other makers had to do.
what makes the head good is the quality control off the steel and ping are know to be one of the best and there are about 10 in china that make very good quality head and some founders make heads for more than one maker of club.
what is best forged or cast.
if you want a cavity back club the cast is best as the heal/toe weight can be set and the cavity can be deeper too.
the difference between a good cast blade type and a forged type is more down to the quality of steel used and the work done after in balancing the club with a shaft and grip fitted.
most played could not feel the difference and most pros that say one club type is better than the other tends to have used that type of club since they started golfing.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

Jamesh

I have never met anyone yet that has improved their game significantly by purchasing a different set of clubs, I have seen some peoples game go to pieces because of it though.

Blades are a useful tool for the very good player who wants to shape their shots, they can be a disaster to a high handicapper though, beware!

Lowpost or GoNavy will be able to give you some good advice on what you should consider but you should be prepared to have them fitted for you, this is more important than make(or most makes) IMHO.

Now for the Engineering bit: Forging produces a part that retains the characteristics of the material from the original steel rolling mill process with respect to grain flow in the material. The strength of the material can change depending on the direction of the grain with respect to the part and stresses applied to it. Cast parts will have a unidirectional strength due to the fact the material has been molten then reformed by casting.

What does this mean with respect to your decision to purchase new clubs? As you are probably not a low handicapper only a big hole in your bank account and no improvement in your game. Either get your existing clubs fitted or replace them with something that makes you feel good that are fitted.

[GoNavy]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

Yep, Brian has it. If your a 12 hdcap or above, I would go with all the game improvement you can get, down below that, it is pretty much get what looks nice to you and have them fitted. The shaft has more to do with it then anything else. This year is the first time in thirty years I am playing with a club that doesn't have a dynamic Gold shaft. For years I played components I put together myself, always with DG shafts, they all played prety much the same, regardless off Cavities or blades, I realized that because my swing was consistant I very rarely missed the center of the face, so it really didn't make much difference. This year I bought a set of Titliest 755, why because I like the way they looked, they have minimal offset and tri-spec shafts. Because of the shafts I have picked up about 10 yds per club. These shafts were the only thing I was worried about, and I was very happen with them, but I have the equipment to replace them with DG if they weren't, I also set the loft/lie after I got them.

So the moral is find out what shafts suit your game, the heads come down to what looks good to you, and regardless have them checked (lofts) and fitted (lie) to you. Even the most expensive set will be off. I can take a cheap set from walmart, set the loft/lie and replace the cheap shafts with DG's and they will perform just as good as an expensive set. So shafts are the key, don't just assume because Callaway, Titliest, or Ping is stamped on them they are better. If the shaft doesn't suit you, they are ****.

The only reason single digit hdcappers don't use game improvement clubs, is because they don't need them, they look funny, and the big offsets make it harder to work the ball. If you are not hitting the center of the face every shot, then stick with the game improvement stuff for awhile. When you do get good enough to hit consistantly, then any head will work fine, if it looks good to you, you play better, I have no idea why...lol

Just an addon: If you buy a used set, I promise you the lofts/lie WILL be off. There is not a set of clubs made that can stand up to being hit several hundred times, banging off the ground and maintain it's specs, I check my loft/lie at least twice a year, if I go a whole year, I usually end up with my PW at 44 degrees instead of 47 degrees, that translate to 145 yds instead of the 120 I'm suppose to get with it. And that can really screwup a round of golf.

[Martin Levac]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

Go to your nearest golf shop and try every single club they sell. Select the ones you like.


Forged and cast are methods of manufacture. They do not determine how a golf club feels. The shape of the club determines how a golf club feels. Generally and due to the alloys used for each method, forged allows the clubhead to remain bendable. Cast does not. There are exceptions such as the Accuform Canada PTM irons which are first cast then machined yet remain very bendable and even easily dented due to the alloy used.


The shape of the clubhead determines how a club feels.

It is said that forged clubheads offer more "feel". This feel does not lie in the method (forged) but in the method's limitations (can't forge complex shapes). Forged clubheads are often called blades for their shape while cast clubs are often called perimeter weighted clubs, again for their shape. It is said that perimeter weighted clubheads offer something called "forgiveness". Forgiveness is the mechanism by which the stroke is corrected somewhat by the perimeter weight which mitigates the clubhead's tendency to twist if struck off center. Forgiveness is not the greatest effect of perimeter weighting. Feel is.


Perimeter weighting reduces the feedback one gets from the stroke.

When we strike a ball with a club, the impact's energy is transmitted through the shaft to the grip and we feel it with our hands. The better we strike the ball (dead center), the less we feel it. Conversely, the worse we strike a ball (off center) the more we feel it. The feedback can be so severe that it becomes painful to strike a ball badly. With the casting method, it is possible to make a clubhead with a very pronounced perimeter weighting all around the back. This perimeter weighting will mitigate the feedback we get from a badly struck ball and thus allow us to play badly without suffering the effects of such bad play. In other words, we can still have fun even though we suck.

Additionally, a flexible shaft will transmit less twist and vibration through itself to the grip and thus will dampen the shock of a badly struck ball even more. It is for this reason that mediocre players are always recommended to play perimeter weighted clubheads combined with flexible shafts. But there is a price to pay. Since the shaft is more flexible, it is also less controllable.


Feedback as a way to learn.

Blades are often used by professional players and thus are often called player's clubs. They are so used by pro's because of their ability to transmit great feedback to the player and thus allows him to learn much more quickly than if he used a dull or dead club that gave him no feedback. Also, the professional player prefers rigid shafts over flexible ones because of the same reason but also because of the greater potential for control that rigid shafts offer.

Indeed, combine a blade with a rigid shaft and we get a very effective tool to learn golf properly and quickly. The blade and rigid shaft give plenty of painful feedback while the rigid shaft allows the player to make very precise and accurate corrections.

[LowPost42]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

Better late than never, eh James?

Since you're in TO, call up that Dan Connelly fella over in Hampton. His phone # can be found at Dan's Custom Golf Shop.

Go through a fitting with him - explain that you need to sell your current irons before moving to something new.

Dan will set you up proper - I guarantee it. And when you get there, tell him I sent you.

[jamesh]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

[quote=BrianW;10545147]Jamesh

I have never met anyone yet that has improved their game significantly by purchasing a different set of clubs, I have seen some peoples game go to pieces because of it though.

Thanks for your posts! I was able to try some Mizuno’s – I think it was the 60s – nice club but not as forgiving as I need. On my way in to the simulator there was Callaway X20 with a steel uniflex shaft left handed and a 6 iron – so I tried it . Wow – I looked at the shaft three times because I couldn’t believe it was steel. I went to graphite since my Top Fight clubs (steel shaft) were very painful on off centre hits – with the Callaway X20’s off center hits are felt less than with my present Hawkeye’s with a graphite shaft – it was surreal – how does this affect the feel of the club.. I thought a virtue of the steel was it gave you “feedback” on how you hit the shot. The simulator shoved the 6 iron was going 200 yards – and I don’t trust those things – my Baffler 4 iron – is just under 200 yards! I think I will bring a club with me, next time, which I know how far I hit, so I can get an idea of how much the simulator is off.

James

[BrianW]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

[quote=jamesh;10545393]

Jamesh

I have never met anyone yet that has improved their game significantly by purchasing a different set of clubs, I have seen some peoples game go to pieces because of it though.

Thanks for your posts! I was able to try some Mizuno’s – I think it was the 60s – nice club but not as forgiving as I need. On my way in to the simulator there was Callaway X20 with a steel uniflex shaft left handed and a 6 iron – so I tried it . Wow – I looked at the shaft three times because I couldn’t believe it was steel. I went to graphite since my Top Fight clubs (steel shaft) were very painful on off centre hits – with the Callaway X20’s off center hits are felt less than with my present Hawkeye’s with a graphite shaft – it was surreal – how does this affect the feel of the club.. I thought a virtue of the steel was it gave you “feedback” on how you hit the shot. The simulator shoved the 6 iron was going 200 yards – and I don’t trust those things – my Baffler 4 iron – is just under 200 yards! I think I will bring a club with me, next time, which I know how far I hit, so I can get an idea of how much the simulator is off.

James

Hi James,

I still stand by my original statement on "significant" improvement and new clubs.

If your hands are receiving a shock when the ball is hit then your quality of contact is poor, you will be hitting the ball thin. Using a club that filters some of the shock will not improve the hit, it will only make it more bearable but still a thinned hit.

Fix the problem not the symptom!

[bulldog2k]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

<flying in the face of received wisdom>

I like Ping s59's; I like the look of them, and I like the fact that they match my favourite club in the world - my Ping Tour Wedge. My problem is that my current HC - 22 - falls somewhat outside the target HC Ping suggest for these clubs - 5/6

I've always bought into this 'blades for those rock/cavities for those who chop' argument, though I was fortunate enough to be able to try my brother's blades on holiday recently. He didn't exactly inspire me, telling me he found them like hitting marbles with razor blades.

I asked him why he'd got them, and he replied he thought he wouldn't get any better until he was able to shape shots. Mike, you have to understand, at address has the club open by at least 30 degrees, and has a casting action so bad it looks like he's fly fishing. Mike could no more hit a draw than jump over the nearest tree, and this will never change regardless of the clubs he uses until he does something about his swing action...

Anywhoo...

I tried them - and hit them fine. I only had time to try 2 shots with the 5I and 3 with the 7I and the only thing that went wrong was I pulled one of the 7I's a bit.

So - on Weds, I went to my nearest Ping stockist and asked to try the s59s.



The chap there was a bluff Northern no-nonsense bloke who said immediately, "What's your HC?"

"22."

"You're not having S's."

I pursuaded him to let me try.

And - right from the off - I hit them absolutely fine. No drama, no problem. For comparison, I also tried the Ping G5's (allegedly much more suited to me) and my own Slazenger TWT. I hit no more bad shots with the S59's than I did with the G5's or my own clubs.

Clearly, one obvious question people will wonder is, "Well - are you maybe just uniformly sh1t with all of them?" and the honest answer is, "No." I got a nice straight uniform ball flight with all of them.

The next obvious question is, "Well, were the **** shots with the blades worse than the **** shots with the cavities?" The honest answer is, "Not to any real preceivable degree." I did wonder - but I think I was just over sensitive, knowing the perceived wisdom about blades. Did I thin some? Yes. As I did with my own clubs, but they were pretty rare.

I guess the ones I fatted went a little further with my own club than the s59's. That's about it.

It begs the obvious question, "Well, what the hell was the difference between them?" and as far as I'm concerned, the difference was, the blades felt lighter, and the head felt smaller.

That's it.

The bluff Northern chap was surprised - very - but asked the fair question, "What would be the advantage of the S59s?" Honestly, none. Absolutely none, except I like the look of them, and I like the kudos of playing with them. Is that worth £200? No.

But I'm still buying some. I am that shallow that I will buy clubs because I like the look of them. But - for me - the blades/cavity argument just hasn't held any water.

None of this, of course, undermines Brian's argument that buying new clubs does anything for anyone's game. I suspect an increased feeling of confidence does, but that's a quite separate thing.

I just think in golf, as in life, sometimes you need to throw the received wisdom out of the window, and test it out for yourself...

Go on, then - flame away

[bulldog2k]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

PS ^^ Jamesh, please note, that's not advice saying, "Get blades." It was just a personal account of what happened to me last week, and, if anything, a suggestion, that you should listen to everyone, go and try everything, and then ignore everyone, and be bloody-minded enough to do what makes YOU happy

[BrianW]

Re: How to select a newer set of Irons

PS ^^ Jamesh, please note, that's not advice saying, "Get blades." It was just a personal account of what happened to me last week, and, if anything, a suggestion, that you should listen to everyone, go and try everything, and then ignore everyone, and be bloody-minded enough to do what makes YOU happy

Spot on Bulldog! As I suggested in the final analysis get something that makes you happy and have them fitted.

I am not always good at taking my own medicine and purchase things because it makes me feel good as opposed to the practical aspect of it. But!! I guess if someone poses the question I would prefer to give a reasoned answer than one based on human frailty