Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

[jamesh]

Jim Thorpe, I believe, has won three of the last five Schwab Golf Championships. During the last telecast, a commentator commented on how it was refreshing to see an original golf swing the kind that were dug out from the dirt before the time when it was fashionable to videotape golf swings, take lessons. Etc. these days he said, we see typical cookie-cutter golf swing and they all resemble each other. Today, on the Golf Channel I was watching a presentation on Jack Nicholas. He had tremendous leg movement during his golf swing, and his putting seemed to be unorthodox by today's standards -- and he excelled mightily at golf. So, the swings we see today, maybe very unorthodox 20 years from now. Is there any advantage to taking videotape lessons in developing your own cookie-cutter style of golf?

I always thought those that took golf lessons had a distinct advantage. Why rediscover a game by yourself, when so many others have already figured it out? Be that as it may, Jim Thorpe's swing, by no means cookie-cutter -- has taken him a long way. I have friends who insist I'm wasting time by taking lessons. One of them is a bit of a natural, but at times he struggles with his game. The other friend, has perhaps the most horrendous golf swing I have ever seen, and thinks he just needs to tweak a few things.

So do you think, by taking golf lessons you have a distinct advantage over those who don't?


James H.

[bampot]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Yes, I think taking lessons can be beneficial, with one proviso. Make sure he is prepared to build on what you have rather than a complete makeover,sad to say some pros. trot out the same old stuff, EG. still head,ramrod left arm, hit past the chin, grip the club as you would a small bird etc. the list is endless.

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi
i think Bampot is spot on and if you can get a teaching pro that can tweak your swing so you swing more repeatably without having to build it form the feet up then its worth sticking with him, most of us have small faults that can be removed and keep the swing we are using, there are a few that do need a rebuild but most of us don't have the time to put into a complete rebuild of a swing.
cheers
bill

[qassim]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Even though I could swing a golf club, I have benefitted a great deal from having lessons. In particular 2 things have helped the most;

1. I have been educated in what should be trying to achieve with the club.

2. Being able to see my swing on video to be able to see for myself whether what I think I am doing is actually happening in reality.

So I definitely believe that having lessons, from a good, knowledgeable teacher is a disticnt advantage.

The best players in the world are still having 'lessons' so there must be something in it!!

[BrianW]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Learning Golf is much like learning any skill, we each have a certain natural ability level and expectation of what we wish to achieve. If you wanted to play tennis, squash, the piano, the guitar, to become a good singer you would probably start off self learning, your natural ability and practice would take you to a standard that would be either acceptable to you or not.

If you are not satisfied after this you would seek help from books, videos or coaching. Whether these mediums of learning have a satisfactory outcome will depend on their suitability to you as an individual, we have to work that one out for ourselves.

Would a cookie-cutter golf swing (Or any other golf swing) make us a great golfer, would learning how to find any note on the piano or classic guitar make us a world class musician? Not necessarily, but without the basic skills you will be inconsistent and inconsistency is not a platform for improvement.

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi Brian
what you said in your last post made me remember learning to play the organ and have to play scales day in and day out and have my feet playing one scale and my hands playing another, but did i hate it but it was only when a lot older and a good organist that i realized that training built up a foundation for my playing in later years and the work put in then was worth it.
cheers
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Golf, unlike math or history for example, can be taught by anybody. There is no academic or legal restriction to teaching golf at a golf club, be it private or public. Or anywhere else for that matter except in an actual school, college or university. And I don't mean a golf school. In order to teach in a school, a teacher must go through some learning of his own. He must earn a degree in pedagogy. Then perhaps he'll earn a degree in the various sciences he teaches but that's not a requirement since the teacher does not need to be an expert in what he teaches. He only needs to be an expert at teaching it. Sadly, not one golf professional is an expert at teaching golf. Very few are even good at it. The great majority just take our money. Again and again. And we like it.

As we can deduce from the above, just about anybody teaches golf. So is there an advantage to taking lessons? I think not. I think taking lessons is the worst thing a player can do. I will demonstrate with the question below.

When do we graduate?

You read correctly. When do we get your degree in golf? We're taking lessons, we're learning golf, when do we graduate to master golfer? Well, how much time does it take? The golf pro should know. How long before I can call myself a master golfer? Just keep taking those lessons and one day we'll be good. Is that what we're supposed to do when we go to school? Just keep taking lessons until we become good?

No. We know how to teach. We do it everyday to billions of people all over the world. We known how long it takes to teach anything so we know precisely when students will graduate. We know it 4 years in advance. We know it so well that we even have equivalency programs for those who earned their degrees in other countries. When do we graduate from golf lessons?

Mechanic, 2 years
Plumber, 2 years
Doctor, 12 years
Golfer, ???

So is there an advantage to taking lessons?

I think those who haven't taken a lesson have a distinct advantage over those who have. They are not hampered by the restrictions of those lessons. "Don't slide your hips" "Don't do this" "Don't, don't, don't". But why don't? Because it's bad, it's the death move, it's the cause of bad shots, etc. All garbage if you ask me. Those who haven't taken lessons, they can do whatever they want as long as they obey the rules of golf. They'll use any technique to achieve their goal of sending that ball in the hole. Generally, it works well. And with practice, they'll learn how to do it better anyway. Ben Hogan was self taught. So was Jim Furyk, Jack Nicklaus, Moe Norman and a whole bunch of successful professionals.

We know how to play golf. We just don't know how to teach it. At least, no pro knows how to teach it. Otherwise, you'd be able to go up to any teaching pro, pay your fee and expect to graduate six months from now.

Unlike the golf pro, practice has always known how to teach us. It is with practice that we develop, improve and maintain skill.

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi Martin
i tend to agree with most of your post in that most pro's don't give you a set target that you will get to with so many lessons but there are a few gold schools that do do this and have a standard you have to reach at the end of the two week course. you have to archive certain goals. so far i have found only two here in the uk, the Faldo school and Montys school. i know that Dave Pelz is the same in that you have targets to achieve on the short game and putting.
it would be great if club pro's were to use this kind of teaching where you had to obtain a set standard before you could move to the next part.
i think with the schools it more in the like of,
Driving.
long game.
mid game.
short game.
putting.
recovery shots.
you move on only after you reach a certain point in one of the discipline.
i wonder what the pros on here think of that.

one thing i do see is the club pros with children and helping there game, when i first started to play i wish they had the same set up they have here now where the kids get taught on the holidays, you see in only a few weeks how much they have got better.
cheers
bill

[klaymon]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin,

If taking lessons is the worst thing we can do, what about those of us who cannot find a technique on our own that allows us to succeed at some level? Are we destined to not play golf well? Do you think that maybe lessons would be in order at this point? Your argument could go for anything in life and still not be valid. "I'll learn math myself, I'll learn to parachute on my own, etc..."

I consider myself to have good athletic abilities (baseball/softball player all my life), but yet I cannot get the golf swing down. It's apparent that I am deficient in my technique so I will turn to lessons. I can assure you, with 100% confidence, I will become a better golfer as lessons progress. Will I ever "graduate"? Who knows? But it will help me enjoy the sport all the more.

[BrianW]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin,

I disagree with some of your points.

Most golf instructors will sell a basic course that teaches some fundamental underpinning to playing golf and will include stance, grip, alignment, ball position, basic swing mechanics and safety, this will be something in the region of six lessons. Beyond this they will sell you further instruction on things like pitching, chipping, putting etc etc. They will also sell you coaching sessions and it is up to the individual to determine whether they require coaching or not or whether a particular instructor is right for them. Not much different to learning any recreational or physical skill really.

Your point on how long one would graduate in a profession is not comparing apples for apples. Even when someone graduates from a profession they are not normally at their full potential, this is due to the limitation of practical application and experience which takes some time to obtain.

I would question your statement that there is a distinct advantage in golf for those that have not taken lessons. I do not have empirical data to back this but I would suggest that the vast majority of golfers have never taken lessons or at the most one or two. Most people I know in golf have not taken lessons and I believe this is one of the reasons the average handicap is still around 25/28. I find watching golf swings very interesting, most people I see swing out to in and fall back on their back foot in the downswing, this is the major contributor to fat, thin, sliced, hooked, shanked and weak shots. If most of these people could fix these two flaws then the standard of golf would improve a lot and that average handicap would tumble. As they don't seem able to fix the problem by themselves should they not seek help.

Golf instructors are like driving instructors, tennis instructors, football coaches etc, some are good, some are not so good, some will have a style that suits you some will have a style that suits others, it's horses for courses.

You know what my point of view is with practice so I will not volunteer to open that old cookie up again.

[oldwease]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I tend to think that things are much better now. Probably, through technology, there's a greater awareness of what contributes to an effective swing. There certainly seem to be more well-defined methods around today. That said, there's no reason why swings should be identical. I guess successful swings will always share some things in common which are vital to good ball striking but the rest can vary. Even looking at the tour pros surely tell us that.

When I started playing way back as a kid, I realised I needed some basic guidance. With no videos, DVD's, golf channels etc around, I went to the local library and got hold of 'Gary Player's Golf Class'. Basically, set out in a series of easy 'lessons', that book covered the whole swing and aspects of the game in a very easy to follow visual format. Don't know if it's still available but, if it is, I would highly recommend it. Of course, Gary tends to be pretty individual in his approach, but it was always clear and concise. So, that was my grounding.

Shortly thereafter, I had one solitary golf lesson (probably at the age of 13 or 14). I remember thinking that my whole game would be taken to another level. All the pro told me was that I had 'remarkable rhythm and timing'. Great, I thought, but how do I hit it further? I came away from the lesson very disappointed as I had not been given any 'magic move' and really felt I had learnt nothing.

With hindsight, I should perhaps have realised that Gary Player had done a decent job in giving me sound basics and built upon that. What has hindered my progress most since that time is trying to incorporate the latest gimmick. Usually, that new 'magic move' has damaged my swing, not improved it. As of now, if I see an article anything to do with Tiger's 'special secret' I think, great for him, and move on. It works for him because of everything else in his swing. Why try to take one little thing out?

So, what I do now is stick to what I've got. Sure, I'll try some new things just to experiment. It's a gradual process though. I do like to see effective, unorthodox swings. That makes me take more notice of why something that may look very individual works. I've never had another lesson so don't really know how the newer approaches might work. My friend did, however, show a huge improvement after one lesson where, basically, the pro changed his grip. Before, he would hit all over the place, now he's pretty consistent. I think I should find an old copy of Gary Player's Golf Class.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Don't listen to anyone who tells you lessons are bad. Find an instructor you like and stick with him/her. Lessons are the only way one can really learn the fundamentals and having a trained professional evaluate your swing from time to time is essential for improvement.
There are alot of ignorant folks out there who are dealing from a negative, biased agenda and they need to be avoided like the plague.

Martin,

I disagree with some of your points.

Most golf instructors will sell a basic course that teaches some fundamental underpinning to playing golf and will include stance, grip, alignment, ball position, basic swing mechanics and safety, this will be something in the region of six lessons. Beyond this they will sell you further instruction on things like pitching, chipping, putting etc etc. They will also sell you coaching sessions and it is up to the individual to determine whether they require coaching or not or whether a particular instructor is right for them. Not much different to learning any recreational or physical skill really.

Your point on how long one would graduate in a profession is not comparing apples for apples. Even when someone graduates from a profession they are not normally at their full potential, this is due to the limitation of practical application and experience which takes some time to obtain.

I would question your statement that there is a distinct advantage in golf for those that have not taken lessons. I do not have empirical data to back this but I would suggest that the vast majority of golfers have never taken lessons or at the most one or two. Most people I know in golf have not taken lessons and I believe this is one of the reasons the average handicap is still around 25/28. I find watching golf swings very interesting, most people I see swing out to in and fall back on their back foot in the downswing, this is the major contributor to fat, thin, sliced, hooked, shanked and weak shots. If most of these people could fix these two flaws then the standard of golf would improve a lot and that average handicap would tumble. As they don't seem able to fix the problem by themselves should they not seek help.

Golf instructors are like driving instructors, tennis instructors, football coaches etc, some are good, some are not so good, some will have a style that suits you some will have a style that suits others, it's horses for courses.

You know what my point of view is with practice so I will not volunteer to open that old cookie up again.

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi
i was a bit like oldwease in when i started i went to the library and got Lee Trevino's "swing my way?" but i did follow ever part of his book and did find i got a lot better quickly. then about 7 years later i met and became friends with the tour pro David Roberson and he changed my swing from an open stance to a closed one and i started to draw the ball. i could not add up the hours we spent together golfing and the help he gave me over 10 or so years, i was very lucky.
his teaching must of worked as at best i was playing off 4 but more often played to 6.
since my back problems i have gone back to the open stance and the years spent learning Trevino seemed to pay off as i was back playing well in no time after a 3 year lay off.
i would not say don't take a lesson as i have first hand found it to works and i see kids of 7 and 8 at my club start to learn and cant hit a ball and after a few weeks are hitting the ball and also found a love of the game too and thats down to the pro at my club and i's sure it happens at many other clubs too. when i was in my young teens i was not let on the course till i had a handicap or i was 16 and back then golf ranges were only things in the USA. things are better for kids now and pros do a better job with them now too.
i also took a lesson in sand play as that was a weakness and two hours later i was confident i could play any sand shot with a degree of reliability and consistency.
cheers
bill

[oldwease]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I've just tracked down a second-hand copy of Gary Player's Golf Class on the Internet. Can't wait to get it (apparently first published in 1969!).

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi oldwease
i still have and read my Lee Trevino "swing my way" i first read it in 1978 from the library and got my copy in 1984 and is the golf book i have had longest and that and Hogans 5 fundamentals are the most read of all my golf books.
cheers
bill